8mm to the Left: If Hitler Died in 1923

[Drizzt]

Up to and including the OTL split of SPD / USPD.

So in short, Imo it portraits the SPD as more left then I had anticipated and that clashes with the characters shown.

Well the OTL split is the key IMO. In TTL they reabsorbed them, which in due time meant that the "former" Communists together with the extremist wing of the SPD became the tail that was wagging the dog. It still calls itself the SPD, but is now the KPD in all but name except that people like the guys wife haven't realised it yet or are living in denial.
That's something that happened plenty of time in history. A mass movement is unwilling to kick out it's extremists due to a combination of being seduced by the additional power and naivety about how they'll be one big happy family and decade or two later the extremists are in the drivers seat and the old guard is getting purged.

 

[Whiteshore]

Speaking of the SPD's split, what happened to Carlo Mierendorff and his "activist" wing of the SPD? Did they stick with the SPD or join the new SED?

 

[TeluguKhan]

To much Party Politics, and not enough dreadnoughts( yes I know that they are obsolete, but I like them, also more cavalry)

 

[1962strat]

Ah that's a fair point. I think that it still works, though, because while the family is pro-SPD, they are not Communists, so they wouldn't be advocating for collectivisation or anything like that, just more social welfare and the like. Since Prussia was overwhelmingly pro-SPD, I figured that a lot of people in non-traditionally Socialist jobs would likely still be Socialist. Communism is another beast, of course.

I think it makes the part about the social pressure to vote for the SPD rather hard to explain, though. You can write off a banker, who would likely lean liberal from the beginning, having a particularly strong sense of social awareness and voting for the SPD, but most of his circle wouldn't.

 

[Whiteshore]

not enough dreadnoughts

This reminds me, @KaiserKatze, what plans does Vorbeck have for the Reichsmarine going forward?

 

[KaiserKatze]

I think it makes the part about the social pressure to vote for the SPD rather hard to explain, though. You can write off a banker, who would likely lean liberal from the beginning, having a particularly strong sense of social awareness and voting for the SPD, but most of his circle wouldn't.

That is where I think that the Jewish element comes into play, though, since Jews in general, and especially in Frankfurt, tended to lean hard towards the SPD.

This reminds me, @KaiserKatze, what plans does Vorbeck have for the Reichsmarine going forward?

He does not have any major plans for it, since he knows that expanding it massively would anger Britain and, frankly, it isn't like Germany really NEEDS a powerful Navy right now

 

[Whiteshore]

He does not have any major plans for it, since he knows that expanding it massively would anger Britain and, frankly, it isn't like Germany really NEEDS a powerful Navy right now

So, build a few more cruisers and destroyers and maybe replace the old Pre-Dreadnoughts with the Scharnhorsts (or an equivalent class) would be his plans for his in the mean time? And my other question then on Carlo Mierendorff and his faction of the SPD?

 

[KaiserKatze]

So, build a few more cruisers and destroyers and maybe replace the old Pre-Dreadnoughts with the Scharnhorsts (or an equivalent class) would be his plans for his in the mean time? And my other question then on Carlo Mierendorff and his faction of the SPD?

I do have some ideas lined up for Carlo come the early 1940's, but at the moment I see him as joining with the SED and generally just advocating for anti-Marxist Socialism

 

[wietze]

I think they are more referring to the assumption that a banker would not be a socialist by nature of their profession. I stumbled over that point, too, but then I wasn't sure if such a blanket statement would be true, as I'm sure there must be banks by the proletariat, as well. So I chalked up the disconnect of a socialist being a banker to my general ignorance.

Ah that's a fair point. I think that it still works, though, because while the family is pro-SPD, they are not Communists, so they wouldn't be advocating for collectivisation or anything like that, just more social welfare and the like. Since Prussia was overwhelmingly pro-SPD, I figured that a lot of people in non-traditionally Socialist jobs would likely still be Socialist. Communism is another beast, of course.

not all banks are privately owned there are also so called banking cooperatives

Cooperative banking - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

edit: so in those cases a banker can be a worker - a white collar worker, but a worker nevertheless

 

[wietze]

also socialism (and communism) aren't monolithic . socialism starts at left of center and spreads quite a wide bit leftwards. communism is just one of the forms of extreme-left socialism.
and on collectivisation even there are shades of grey - universal collectivisation would be something for the far left nutters. partial collectivisation (of selected types of business) is a whole different thing (such as post office/ water supply, anything that can be seen as a utility)

 

[TeluguKhan]

He does not have any major plans for it, since he knows that expanding it massively would anger Britain and, frankly, it isn't like Germany really NEEDS a powerful Navy right now

It does not need to be large, but modernised, especially if the Lion of Africa would like to gain some land there again

also as a tangent, I was looking into Vorbeck´s life after WW2, and honestly I have never had more respect for him, I thought he would be some really racist mean person, but he is genuinely a good man

 

[Migrant_Coconut]

L-V told Hitler to go f**k himself (though apparently in much less polite terms). He knew firsthand from his little adventure in Africa that the Aryan master race was garbage.

 

[TeluguKhan]

L-V told Hitler to go f**k himself (though apparently in much less polite terms). He knew firsthand from his little adventure in Africa that the Aryan master race was garbage.

I aspire to be like this, how can you even be less polite

 

[Migrant_Coconut]

I aspire to be like this, how can you even be less polite

Dunno, but apparently it was a thing.

During the 1960s, Charles Miller asked the nephew of a Schutztruppe officer, "I understand that von Lettow told Hitler to go fuck himself." The nephew responded, "That's right, except that I don't think he put it that politely."
Wiki

Fun fact: in '64, the West German government finally got around to paying the Askaris' back pay. Not many of them could provide proof of ID... but when each one was given a broom and asked to perform the German manual of arms, not a single one failed the test.

 

[wietze]

I aspire to be like this, how can you even be less polite

it just not less polite, but outright brave. anyone lesser would have died

 

[TeluguKhan]

Fun fact: in '64, the West German government finally got around to paying the Askaris' back pay. Not many of them could provide proof of ID... but when each one was given a broom and asked to perform the German manual of arms, not a single one failed the test.

Vorbeck must´ve been so proud

it just not less polite, but outright brave. anyone lesser would have died

these defiant events in history is what makes me love the subject so much,

 

[MxCokoko]

First, thanks for the answer.
Now for some explanation, it is more the disconnect from the whole reopen a Bank implying a rather comfortable middle / upper middle class position with the whole proletariat vs burgoise struggle in favor for the proletariat... It makes it hard for me to belive that such a family would be willing to give up its position for the more communist belives you imply them having. [...] As I mentiond, a working class family having such a conversation would Imo fit better for the SPD part, even more so with the appearant major influence that the communist faction is having. I.e. "couping" the party leadership.

Well, you could argue someone working as a banker is a working class. After all, in a capitalist society, banks are essential to not just the system but to the working class as a whole, allowing them to secure (arguably predatory) loans for opening businesses and securing housing. The USSR had a banking system (Gosbank), so it's not exactly anti-communist to be a banker; granted, people in that position tend to not follow those beliefs, but it's not exactly unheard of for someone exposed to the system on a daily basis to skew left to some degree.

As to the whole union part with the state seemingly going against them? Afaik the unions in Germany were better integrated in the whole process of conflict resolution and workers rights. Again, it is more the general feel that the whole union / socialism struggle against the state thing is... I would say shown from an anglo-centric position.
Whereas the SPD was a major power in the time in Germany even prior to the Great War and shoulderd the burdons of being a party at that time. Up to and including the OTL split of SPD / USPD.

Considering that Paul is attempting to break the power of the SPD, it's not exactly unlikely that they're not really friendly with many unions, but I don't think they're openly hostile to organized labor as long as they aren't openly communists.

 

[Karl the Writer]

My Reminiscences of East Africa by von Lettow Vorbeck

www.allworldwars.com

Found L-Vs memoirs of his time in Africa.

 

[1962strat]

L-V told Hitler to go f**k himself (though apparently in much less polite terms). He knew firsthand from his little adventure in Africa that the Aryan master race was garbage.

Worth noting that there are no trustworthy sources for this, and that L-V later played Nazi propaganda quite enthusiastically while lobbying for the return of the colonies.

 

[Ramontxo]

not all banks are privately owned there are also so called banking cooperatives

Cooperative banking - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

edit: so in those cases a banker can be a worker - a white collar worker, but a worker nevertheless

So true.

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