REDUX: Place In The Sun: What If Italy Joined The Central Powers?

Ultimately A-H gains territory but still has large scale internal divisions. But they've avoided the worst of the losses and humiliations they suffered over WW1 so in time the country could stabilize as they digest thier gains and handle their internal political issues. It might take a decade or two but if they can stabilize (With German support) they could become a regional powerhouse.

Bulgaria seems to have come out well - if they can hold on to the Balkans they should do all right. Romania will probably come out of this much richer - they avoided conflict, might have gone to nab some bits of Russia, and alienated no one that could do anything about it. Afterwords they can sell agricultural supplies to whomever they feel like it. Perhaps even modernize as they discover and build up oil.

Russia seems weakened but has avoided the worst of the internal collapse they had 1917. They're humiliated and have several smaller states broken off them (likely Ukraine, Poland, Finland, etc) that are likely to be German satellite states. It ultimately depends how the Tsar plays things. If he can hold on to power and initiate reforms or if his removal from power is in turn softer as the country is not going through an internal revolution and then civil war. Germany will likely pay a lot of attention to Russia and could possibly decide to prop up the Tsar (he's still a relative of the Kaiser after all, and no one wants the dirty reds in power). If this happens, over time there might be a sort of softening of relations - but that's decades down the line if at all.

The Ottomans are definitely weakened. They've lost territory, have been pushed out of much of the Middle East, and have little to show for it. Without Gallipoli they dno't have a lot of face saving. But also the MIddle East isn't exctly of major benefit to them. If the Young Turks come to power with a degree of German support, down the line they could be a major regional powerhouse - if they can reform. This depends on how Germany plays off them.

The Balkans? Anywhere not swallowed up by Bulgaria or Austria-Hungary will be completely isolated and a satellite state in all but name. They know no one will help them and they've seen that pushing for regional homelands will end up self-destructing. Greece may or may not be occupied but won't have a great deal of leeway after - even if they're independent they'll have much pressure on them from everyone.

Germany has a lot of territory they now have to figure out how to control and incorporate, they've lost a lot of their colonies - or at least been shown they have no way of securing them against the British, and massive debt issues will make it so they can't really build up territory even in theory they control. It's likely that in the coming decades Britain will make major inroads into the area. But Germany will also achieve autarky (sp) - if they develop thier infrastructure in a timely manner they'll have almost all economic independence and all the resources they need. From eastern and central europe, from the Baltic states.. A lot of areas will be beholden to them and likely dependent on them.

Some level of internal reform will be necessary - the Socialists are very likely to demand them and have a lot of internal support after the losses of the war, and Germany has too much territory to control and they can't do it all with garrisons. So some level of appeasement will be necessary. it's unlikely the Kaiser will have total dictatorial powers anymore - but that's a purely theoretical consideration. Expect a lot of instability in the coming decade or so but if things stabilize Germany will be pretty independent economically with a hegemony over much of Europe. Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans will be dependent on them, and Italy will be dependent on them for things like coal. There won't be a lot of cooperation and a lot of instability, but that can subside in time if Germany is pragmatic and is willing to take steps to help stabilize the areas dependent on them.

Britain comes out with a mixed bag I guess. They'll have control over most of Africa or have shown that they can take over the rest of it if they want. Their empire ultimately hasn't been threatened and they haven't taken massive losses. Their economy isn't close to collapse and they don't have millions of dead. But France is broken and they have no allies in Europe anymore (Belgium is a rump state at best). Britain can deny Germany access to ports in Northern France and keep Belgium, but not a lot more. The Royal Navy is unchallenged (Germany will never have the economic capabilities to build a navy that can threaten Britain). Japan will likely remain a nominal ally - or at least neutral.

the United States will be owed a lot of money by the British but the Brits aren't close to the point of economic collapse from them. They won't be expecting France or Russia to pay them back, and it will probably be hard times for the British for a bit, but nothing crippling.

The United States will probably be isolationist still (no Zimmerman Telegram, things quieted down before the sinking of the Lusitania became a complete causus beli). The US will have a massive amount of loans to Britain that require payment back so it's likely they will be economically interested in the British for some time to come- if only so the Robber Barons don't go bankrupt. But there's still no massive military buildup and ties to the rest of the world.

It's tense for the coming decades but no one wants a war or to risk the Reds coming to power, and everyone has a vested interest in peace in some form or another. Britain isn't under threat, but they have no allies in the continent. But Germany will never be able to threaten Britain directly. Britain has control of the Med and can't be threatened there. They can choke off anyone at leisure via the Suez and Gibraltar. But Britain also can't threaten Germany with a blockade to starve them out in a future conflict. I'm not sure whether to call the end result in the next cuple of decades a cold war, but no one has the direct ability to threaten the other and there's enough instabilities in Europe that the Germans will be forced to keep their attention inwards. And at best even wit hrecovery the other countries will be regional powers.
 
I can only wonder of the future relationship between AH and Italy.

My headcanon for this is that AH still eventually faces internal strife, perhaps with the 1927 Ausgleich, but what would simply have been another Hungarian Revolt (where the Magyars shortly have the upper hand before the rest of loyalist AH collectively stomps them) edges towards a full-on international crisis when Italy threatens to involve itself - ostensibly to protect the Italian minorities but really as a land grab. From there, Romania and Serbia get involved with the sabre-rattling, even maybe Poland (if Germany doesn't crack down on them), with AH's internal seperatist groups acting as vocal minorities and making it all worse. It just becomes a political clusterfuck and a true test of Germany's ability to handle this situation diplomatically without either allowing a war that only harms German interests, loses German prestige, losing allies, or all three - or if the Germans just say fuck it and involve themselves militarily to keep the peace, damn the consequences.
 

pls don't ban me

Monthly Donor
I can only wonder of the future relationship between AH and Italy.

My headcanon for this is that AH still eventually faces internal strife, perhaps with the 1927 Ausgleich, but what would simply have been another Hungarian Revolt (where the Magyars shortly have the upper hand before the rest of loyalist AH collectively stomps them) edges towards a full-on international crisis when Italy threatens to involve itself - ostensibly to protect the Italian minorities but really as a land grab. From there, Romania and Serbia get involved with the sabre-rattling, even maybe Poland (if Germany doesn't crack down on them), with AH's internal seperatist groups acting as vocal minorities and making it all worse. It just becomes a political clusterfuck and a true test of Germany's ability to handle this situation diplomatically without either allowing a war that only harms German interests, loses German prestige, losing allies, or all three - or if the Germans just say fuck it and involve themselves militarily to keep the peace, damn the consequences.
how a small civil war that is stalemated as Austria has problem with keeping quiet her Balkans gains and Hungary instead is pushing.
Poland offers help but at the heavy price of getting Galicia.
after refusing (o course) initially, when the Hungarians start actually pushing on Wien they accept by including some monetary compensation for the loss of A LOT of territories.
this way, they win the civil war, and then reform the nation into a federation:
  • Austrian lands as empire
  • OTL Hungary borders as kingdom
  • Bohemian Kingdom + Slovakian territories gained from being loyal
  • Transylvanian Duchy seized from Hungary.
  • Yugoslavian kingdom: Croatia, Bosnia and whatever they took from Serbia.
This of course will scare the shit out of Serbia, since they fear that Austria will desire to annex them because Yugoslavia mean " south slavs land". it might be enough to make them renounce their desires of revenge on Bulgaria, seek to reconcile with the "older Brother" since they are both old countries and both orthodox. it might lead to some minor border revision in favor of Serbia ( this way Bulgaria also might peacefully convince the serbians left in nish to help the mortherland and go away) and make an alliance against the Hapsburg federation in which they can include Romania and Italy.
Should Germany face another set of problems with France they can strike knowing that no one will help them.

after the "backstab" the victors will seize:
-Bosnia and Montenegro for Serbia
-Istria and south tyrol for Italy
-Transylvania for Romania.

what is left might actually manage the Hapsburg to keep the crown and decent sized kingdom.
 
The Royal Navy is unchallenged (Germany will never have the economic capabilities to build a navy that can threaten Britain). Japan will likely remain a nominal ally - or at least neutral
Germany went from having a coastal defense navy to, in a few decades, being 50% the size of the Royal Navy, all while maintaining the most powerful army in the world. With a possible Austria-Hungary collapse, Germany would absorb Austria and the Sudetenland, bringing millions of additional inhabitants into the Reich.
As the decades passed, the disparity in GDP per capita between Germany and Great Britain would decrease, increasing the economic gap between them.
British naval supremacy is not set in stone, as the rise of the US Navy in World War II showed.
 
Britain comes out with a mixed bag I guess. They'll have control over most of Africa or have shown that they can take over the rest of it if they want. Their empire ultimately hasn't been threatened and they haven't taken massive losses. Their economy isn't close to collapse and they don't have millions of dead. But France is broken and they have no allies in Europe anymore (Belgium is a rump state at best). Britain can deny Germany access to ports in Northern France and keep Belgium, but not a lot more. The Royal Navy is unchallenged (Germany will never have the economic capabilities to build a navy that can threaten Britain). Japan will likely remain a nominal ally - or at least neutral.
The Royal Navy have now the same problem that she had in OTL 1940, sure it's the biggest one around but she had also a lot of commitment. In the med she need to face Regia Marina and an hostile Italy mean that Malta need to be abandoned and with control of Tunisia the italians can cut the med in two, or at least make it a lot more dangerous. In the continent the British don't have an ally and while better off than OTL, well it's like saying that a paraplegic is in a better situation of a tetraplegic
 
Top