Young Alexandros is too closely related to the Palaiologos family. AIII is literally his first cousin.
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The eagle's left head
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
Spoken like a true rural Greek here . We do have a saying about cousins and (distant) aunts after all...Why it shouldn't?
Indeed. I don't think that would be a problem for the Pope to whom the Basilian bishops of Syracuse theoretically are attached (just see Joanna's marriages for a measure), but the patriarch would have probably minded as Lascaris said; if that had been a daughter of Andronikos III, I'd have bet on Maria, since she married a Gattilusio lord, inconsequential enough to avoid large dynastic butterflies.
But then, the Palaiologos family is rather extended, isn't it? John Kantakouzenos may not be, yet, emperor, he is closely linked; apparently his mother was a Palaiologina, and his wife, Irene, as Michael VIII's great-granddaughter, was a second degree cousin of Andronikos III, right ? Speaking of which, did they have to get a dispensation, or was she and John distantly related enough? Among John's daughters, another Maria is my bet. The one who married Nikephoros II of Epirus, so inconsequential as a match, given his OTL fate.
Theodora married Orhan, so this has potentially too big butterflies down the road, and Helena married John V. If Helena could marry John V, then I suppose Maria Kantakouzene could well marry Alexandros without too much fuss.
Other than that, I could think of an Aragonese match among the royal matches. Besides the Angevins and the imperial family, they are the only one who could matter in terms of foreign policy to decide a match. The fall of Palermo and the end of Sicily has removed the primary 'source of contention' between Syracuse and Aragon; they did not even openly intervene until very late. A royal match could help burry the hatchet and be convenient to both Peter IV and Theodore in forming some alliance to balance the Angevin overlords in Naples. Constance of Aragon, Peter IV's sister could make sense; but that would butterfly James IV of Majorca who was involved in the Neapolitan conflict; would that be really a problem in Lascaris' plans for Naples though? Alternatively, Alfonso's daughter who died age 4 in 1327 could survive to the adult age; she'd be about the same age as Alexandros as well.
I think the Laskarids would benefit more from a royal match with a Latin state than any more entanglement with the Palaiologos/Kantakouzenos. They have enough street cred to take over the throne if things blow up in the ERE. The Palaiologos/Kantakouzenos have very little to offer. They have no money, no soldiers. No nothing that the Laskarids can’t just take for themselves.
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Or perhaps, TTL, it could perhaps, be Isabella of Majorca which instead of to marry into the Italian Palaeologus-Montferrat family, here instead she would marry into the Sicilian Vatastes one...
Yes there are not many short term benefits, but it does provide legitemacy and a stable force in the Balkans who they dont have to worry about. The Romans are a stabilising force at the moment. Its a lot better to border them, then the expansionist Serbia. It allows them to entirely focus on Italy without having to garrison their Greek lands.
In terms of legitimacy, the Laskarids themselves are more legitimate than the Palaiologos. It made more sense for the Palaiologos emperor to try and marry a Laskarid than the reverse for legitimacy.
At this point, Majorca does not have anything of value to offer to the Lascarids.
The Aragonese match is the only one that can provide a credible balance to the Angevins, the Byzantine match for prestige and cooperation (Andronikos and John are still doing a good job for the time being, and without benefit of hindsight, no way to know that might not last), and the Angevin one is the easiest, most practical face saving proposal that can avoid a direct, costly and long-drawn conflict between Naples and Syracuse over Greece, one neither of whom stand to particularly benefit.
I'd still go for the Angevin match as the likeliest for that reason alone, then Aragon second, and the Byzantine match in distant third.
She has a title only. It would be difficult to take the island given they are literally in the Western Mediterranean and harder to actually hold it against the Aragonese. The island itself is not profitable enough to worth the venture.
I suppose Serbia is out because of bad blood and Bulgaria is a no no too because of how chaotic it is? No telling the King whose daughter you married will last long enough on the throne to give you a dowry?
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Constance is 8 years Alexandros senior. Not a good match. Of course I must note here that Alexandros at the moment is just 10 years old. And Adrienne may have a few pointed things to say about marrying off a 10 year old...
Of course. So, the Aragonese match would probably be Isabella (OTL 1323-1327) that survives into adolescence, Peter IV's sister, and she would be only three years Alexandros' senior.
Then, there is marrying right now and marrying in a few years time, ie engagement, like Ioannis' engagement with Maria at Salerno in December 1302, a full two years before the actual wedding in Syracuse. And anyways, I read Constance was engaged since the mid 1320s to James III, about ten years before it was actually done. So, Isabella I suppose.
Tbf the main problem that I see with an Aragonese marriage is whether the Aragonese treat the Lascarids as rulers in their own right rather than a really powerful vassal of the Angevins. I could see a Aragonese-Lascarid union only if the court sees the Lascarids as a major power they have to deal with and are knocked down pretty badly.
I think an imperial (or Kantakozenos) marriage is pretty plausible, as are non-joanna and Maria angevin options to secure their hold over Greece and maybe allow them to hold sway over angevin Sicily. I think an additional Angevin sibling would be a plausible idea, as if Alexandros was betroved to Maria there's a large chance she'd just get kidnapped and married to her husband as per otl.
My guess for the third option is Bulgaria. If Serbia goes down the same path as per otl marrying a princess of Bulgaria would be very useful for the Lascarids in aiding them against the Serbs.
I do think the Lascarids do have a bunch of options and I'm pretty sure there're a few options that we haven't thought of yet.
A reminder that marrying a betrothed woman without formally breaking the betrothal, especially by force, renders the marriage invalid under Church law.
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The problem is more about dealing with the aftermath. Taking Maria back would put a lot of Lascarid armies on mainland Italy not to mention how that would go down in Joanna/her father's/Robert's court. I see Robert being supportive of Lascarid incursion but it would be more trouble than it's worth if Maria was betrothed to Alexandros and got kidnapped.
I do think a daughter from Robert (probably Helene, quite unlikely tbf), or an additional daughter from Charles are prime marriage partners to Alexandros.
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A reminder that the Lascarid despotate is just next door to the Durazzos’ lands, on both sides of the straits, unlike the Hungarian king or the King of France. The Durazzos are massively outgunned. If they tried to pull a stunt like this, they are effectively signing their death warrant. Not even Joanna I could save them.
There’s also no way anyone could see the Durazzos being bold enough to try something like that IOTL, so it’s unlikely that people would think we shouldn’t marry the older sister if we got the chance, given older sisters are usually more valued due to higher order of succession.
Anyway, more drama=good. I would love to see these Angevin princes getting what they deserved. Louis the Great purging the lot was really satisfying IOTL. More Angevin princes getting purged in this timeline would be even more amusing.
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Ah that's true. I think it'd still be an uncomfortable situation if she got kidnapped though, even if the lands that the Lascarid armies romp through are explicitly not supposed to be part of the Lascarid realms if this scenario occurs.
Tbf I still think the reason why we won't see the union happening is bc of Robert wanting to unite the two angevin lines and marrying Joanna to Andrew and Maria to Louis makes a lot of sense.
I could see a third daughter being used as extra insurance at first but as Andrew dies the third daughter is quickly betrothed to Alexandros so that Joanna would have some leverage over the Lascarids though, and lands such as the rest of Sicily and Aquila could be given to the Lascarids during this tumultuous time. Hell, a more expansion inclined descendant could use their angevin blood to justify invasion (while being derided as Greek by his detractors).
True if Maria is betrothed to Alexandros, but I think Maria would be promised to Louis for the same reasons as per otl (and I don't think Robert would want to make the promise of betrothal when he still is holding the cards) while Robert is still alive.
Ps I hope we see Alexandros ii having a bunch of children that start changing history around the med. Having his descendants establish cadet branches in Cyprus, cilicia and Trebizond if they don't get fucked as per otl would be fun to see.
Tbf I wonder what would happen if Theodore and Alexandros raise armies that could combat Louis and throw them back in Calabria while the angevin princes all are dead or in France. Maria dying alongside her husband would be a good start.
Also the Lascarids taking the lot post invasion is always an intriguing idea especially since the princes are all in France anyways especially if the Lascarids swear fealty to Louis of Hungary by ruling the lands in his stead.
If the Hungarians OTL performance against Louis of Taranto is any indication, we could plausibly think the Lascarids could sweep Naples on their own, since we have already seen them raising forces equivalent if not superior in number, and quality, to what Louis of Hungary did field IOTL. Black death would surely come to interrupt/pause their effort, but unlike the Hungarians, the Lascarid realm is close nearby.