Mate, it's like our reputation for not having a sense of humour and the British reputation for god-awful cooking they have in Germany. We all know it's not really true any more but too much fun not to make the jokes.
The Whale has Wings
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
- Status
Mate, it's like our reputation for not having a sense of humour and the British reputation for god-awful cooking they have in Germany. We all know it's not really true any more but too much fun not to make the jokes.
Or underwater...
Mind, the race for Tripoli is starting to turn into a 'last man standing' sort of affair...
Aussie diplomacy
First, can I say how much I have enjoyed this timeline. I have'nt commented for a while as I wasdeployed to a rocky place, 3 syllables, starts with" A", finishes with "n".
The first Aussie diplomatic station was Washington - 1940/41, I am pretty sure. I think the Ambassador was R.G.Casey, later Governor-General; Menzies saw him as a rival, so moved him offshore.
I know this is rather late to reply to the question - but I was'nt able to get to my computer till just now.
Out od curiousity, will either Blamey or "Red Robbie" Robertson get a guernsey here?
First, can I say how much I have enjoyed this timeline. I have'nt commented for a while as I wasdeployed to a rocky place, 3 syllables, starts with" A", finishes with "n".
The first Aussie diplomatic station was Washington - 1940/41, I am pretty sure. I think the Ambassador was R.G.Casey, later Governor-General; Menzies saw him as a rival, so moved him offshore.
I know this is rather late to reply to the question - but I was'nt able to get to my computer till just now.
Out od curiousity, will either Blamey or "Red Robbie" Robertson get a guernsey here?
Ah, that charming chunk of rock in Mid-Atlantic
Blamey will get a better deal this time; in fact Australia will do better, partly because they are actually building some stuff useful to both them and the Empire a little earlier.
Agreed. I actually seek out American craft brews in London, which given the pretty good UK real ale/craft brew scene speaks volumes about the quality and range of the former.
This is actually massively in favour of the British, as it means they can take full advantage of naval fire support, with much less fear of Italian air attack.
If they've done their job properly (unlike iOTL), which they should with aerial fire direction from Ark Royal's planes, this marks the end of the Italian battlefleet, as Genoa has the only dry dock in Italy capable of repairing their modern battleships.
With Royal Navy battleships able to operate mostly unmolested around the Liyan coast, I really wouldn't want to on a Tripoli bound convoy.
I'm surprised that the French have rolled over so quickly. One thing to consider is that with no Mers-El-Kabir, Britain still has diplomatic relations with Vichy France, so that channel of communication remains open.
It should also be noted who the French commander in Tunisia at this date is, Jean de Lattre de Tassigny, a man who was arrested in 1942 for trying to form an anti-German force within the Vichy French army, but later escaped to lead an allied army. He is also one of France's greatest military heroes. I very strongly doubt that he would permit the Axis to set up shop in territory he controls without a (literal) fight. My expectation would be that ever since he got wind of negotiations to allow the Luftwaffe deployment he would have been in contact with the British, at the very least giving them complete details of when convoys are due to arrive and which airbases the Luftwaffe is using and with what strength, and more likely begging for an intervention by British troops to reinforce him.
The British would be mad to turn him down, even if it means abandoning Greece, I think Churchill would go for it, and ship the forces earmarked to Greece to Tunisia.
I wonder how this combines with the desire to attack the British in port.
It might actually be more effective to launch an amphibious attack directly at Tripoli, supported by the Mediterranean Fleet, in order to disrupt any attempt at reinforcements. It's risky and costly, but preventing the landing of troops and preserving the harbour facilities.
After all, both Homs and Tripoli are approximately the same distance from Sicily, and out of Stuka range, although still within Ju-88 range, of course
Probably the best thing they can do immediately is attack Mellaha Air Base. If they take the place by surprise they could cause massive destruction to the planes there, taking the last Axis controlled airfield in North Africa out of action for some time. This would also neatly trap Rommel, who the British should know has arrived.
Last edited:
Well, there is this chap David Stirling whos been pestering the Australians to let him do things with a few men and armoured cars....
Since it seems to involve high levels of violence towards the Italians, the Australians are rather interested...
Possibly on condition that he round up enough poms for a punch u er game of Australian Rules Football.
Last edited:
Yes nothing promotes friendship as much as the innocent pleasure of blowing stuff up.
The French haven't actually rolled over (yet). Its causing a HUGE controversy; Vichy wants to help the Germans, most of the French Colonies are going ballistic over what they see as effectively joining the German side. While many of the current French military leaders are Vichy supporters, the rank and file aren't. It isnt just going to be a case of Germany unloading their ships in Tunisia and heading for Tripoli...
He would, but whether a bunch of poms could handle Aussie Rules...
Aussie Rules. There are no rules....
The French haven't actually rolled over (yet). Its causing a HUGE controversy; Vichy wants to help the Germans, most of the French Colonies are going ballistic over what they see as effectively joining the German side. While many of the current French military leaders are Vichy supporters, the rank and file aren't. It isnt just going to be a case of Germany unloading their ships in Tunisia and heading for Tripoli...
In this case, as I note, I think there is only one French military leader who really matters in the end, de Tassigny, and we know what choice he would make.
Last edited:
10th February
Prime Minister Winston Churchill formally instructs General Sir Archibald Wavell, Commander in Chief Middle East Command, to regard help for Greece as having a higher priority than exploiting the success in North Africa. He mentions the important effect on American opinion of being seen to fulfil. promises to smaller nations.
HMS Implacable heads to Durban for a better evaluation of her underwater damage, She is now seaworthy, and after inspection to see that she is ready to cross the Atlantic, will carry on to Norfolk Virginia for full repairs - the hull damage will be fixed while the hangars and elevators are rebuilt. The repairs are estimated to take three to four months, as some additional refit work will also be done at the same time.
The intention of the Luftwaffe to operate from bases in Tunisia is temporarily stalled due to issues with the French. While the Vichy regime has told the colony to cooperate, there is resistance, both official and unofficial, on the ground. In particular it is being pointed out that this will lead to Britain legitimately attacking the LW bases, and is tantamount to declaring war on Britain. The plan has not gone down well in the other remaining Vichy-controlled colonies, many of whom are facing serious local opposition. Remaining neutral under Vichy is one thing, actively fighting with Germany is something rather different.
Outside Tripoli, the forces observing the city have generated a little excitement of their own. One of the officers in the detachment is a Major Stirling, a British officer who has been championing the idea of fast, light forces able to hit, run and do reconnaissance behind enemy lines where they are not expected. The actions in the desert have given him the opportunity to talk to a number of Australian officers who are quite interested in the idea of being able to hit the enemy when he isn't expecting it. He has pointed out that he has some armed vehicles, and the detachment has armoured cars, and there is this nice airfield close by at Mellaha full of undefended, helpless enemy aircraft.
Late that evening, the air base receives some unwelcome visitors, who proceed to drive around and into it, shooting up anything resembling an aircraft or a fuel dump. The Italians are taken completely by surprise by this, and many of the aircraft present are destroyed or damaged. Indeed they only miss the German general Rommel by hours; he had flown out of the airfield that afternoon to report back on the situation in Tripoli and to expedite the arrival of the lead elements of his division.
The situation in the city itself is almost as confused. Eight weeks ago it was nowhere near the war, only worrying about handling the Italian supply convoys and the troops on leave. Now it is in the forefront of the action, and it is not prepared in any way for this. The RAF are now visiting every night, and although the raids don't do much damage (the RAF is fast running out of serviceable bombers), the psychological effects are bad. In addition, that morning HMS Terror has paid them a visit and landed a number of 15" shells in the port area before withdrawing.
11th February
The news about the problems in Tunisia is given to Hitler, who flies into a rage, condemning the French, the Vichy regime, the Italians, and basically everyone else in Tunisia. The Army, who had also been hoping to send troops via the French North African ports, points out they need to get troops to North Africa if they are to do any good. Hitler instructs that unless the French do as they are told and allow the complete and full use of Tunisia and any other facilities Germany needs in North Africa, they are to prepare for the complete occupation of France.
Wavell replies to Churchill that he understands the Greek priority, but that the forces currently engaged in North Africa will need considerable refurbishment (in the case of 7th Armoured, basically a complete reconstruction) before they would be ready to send to Greece. He also thinks its worth allowing O'Connor at least one attempt to take Tripoli, as that would throw the Italians out of North Africa and ease the Malta situation considerably, as well as being a considerable propaganda coup. He has reinforcements arriving very shortly, and he suggests that he starts to prepare these for Greece (remembering that Greece hasn't yet actually agreed to British land forces), and planning for their deployment. They would actually be available more quickly , since if they were to replace his existing units it would take a while to prepare them for the desert.
Meanwhile Wavell is meeting with General O'Connor, Admiral Cunningham and Air Marshal Longmore to consider his options. O'Connor, when asked, states that the result of an immediate attack on Tripoli depends a lot on the Italian response. So far, the Italians have tended to collapse when surrounded and attacked, especially later in the campaign where their morale is suffering. However not all Italian units have given in, and he considers it likely that the ones who retreated west rather than surrender will be in the Tripoli garrison. If so, the city may hold out from an initial attack, and he does not have the force to take the city against serious opposition until he is resupplied. His idea is to make an attack as soon as possible, in the hope the city will surrender. If it does not, it will be necessary to put it under siege while his units get replenished and rested. To do that effectively will depend on the Navy and the RAF.
Air Marshal Longmore is more than willing to both attack the city and interdict resupply, but he points out his actual serviceable aircraft numbers are very low after the action of recent weeks. He really needs a couple of weeks to repair and service aircraft, give his pilots a rest, and arrange to operate out of airfields nearer the front. So his question is can the Navy give him that two weeks?
Admiral Cunninghams opinion is that, while the navy has also been worked hard recently, that he can stop most resupply reaching Tripoli for that time. He is mainly worried about Italian aircraft and submarines if he uses his heavier forces forward, but is prepared to risk them for the time needed. As long as Malta can also put out a maximum effort during that time, it should be possible to sink most of the resupply convoys, and given air cover those that arrive can be attacked in the port itself. he is also prepared to run coastal convoys as far forward as possible to relieve the supply situation; fortunately the rapid fall of some of the Italian towns have allowed the Navy to acquire a number of small coastal ships to supplement their existing ships.
Wavell decision is to allow O'Connor one attempt to storm Tripoli, as soon as he is ready, but only if he can be ready inside a week. If that fails, the city will be put under siege and the units will be rested and replenished. Depending what happens in Greece, once this is done at attack can be made to take Tripoli. He also asks Dowding, who is returning to Britain today with his report on air support, to press the CIGS for as many planes as possible to support his operations in North Africa and Greece.
General Ion Antonescu's decision to allow Romania to be used a base for a massive German expeditionary force led today to a diplomatic break with Britain. After a half-hour meeting with Antonescu, later described as "extremely painful", the British envoy, Sir Reginald Hoare, returned to the legation to pack his bags.
Most of Germany's oil supplies come from Romania, and German engineers have for some time been running the country's oil wells. When German troops began arriving, Antonescu said that they were to train the Romanian army. The British told him that a full expeditionary force was not needed to train a few Romanians.
Interesting update.
It would be terribly unfortunate for the Germans to discover the level of opposition to their deployment when the local French forces turn the coastal guns defending the harbours of Tunis and Bizerte on the unsuspecting ships carrying Italian and German troops as they prepare to dock.
If you read about the port defences of Bizerte, you'd feel very sorry for any force that tries to make an opposed landing. These had not been disarmed, unlike some defenses in continental France, and consisted of eight batteries of 240mm guns, four batteries of 164mm guns, and a turreted battery of 340mm guns. There were also beach and landward defences.
If de Tassigny does the right thing, then it's Bizerte where he'll probably make his stand, as the place is a fortress, and the Germans would have a nightmare taking it. Tunis only has four 138mm guns, but that's more than enough to mess up any arriving convoy.
It would be terribly unfortunate for the Germans to discover the level of opposition to their deployment when the local French forces turn the coastal guns defending the harbours of Tunis and Bizerte on the unsuspecting ships carrying Italian and German troops as they prepare to dock.
If you read about the port defences of Bizerte, you'd feel very sorry for any force that tries to make an opposed landing. These had not been disarmed, unlike some defenses in continental France, and consisted of eight batteries of 240mm guns, four batteries of 164mm guns, and a turreted battery of 340mm guns. There were also beach and landward defences.
If de Tassigny does the right thing, then it's Bizerte where he'll probably make his stand, as the place is a fortress, and the Germans would have a nightmare taking it. Tunis only has four 138mm guns, but that's more than enough to mess up any arriving convoy.
Indeed, the catastrophe in North Africa has upset Hitler (insert Bunker Rant of choice here), and the result will be fairly dramatic in a number of areas.
The guns are nice, but its not as if the Italian navy has anything much to use to support a landing...
), and the result will be fairly dramatic in a number of areas.The guns are nice, but its not as if the Italian navy has anything much to use to support a landing...
The French fleet better be ready to sail from Toulon if those batteries open up on Axis shipping.
The guns are nice, but its not as if the Italian navy has anything much to use to support a landing...
Well, they have a few light cruisers and destroyers left, I suppose. You do actually need the guns to sink landing craft though - and these were particularly well defended gun emplacements, both from land and air.
If the initial convoy full of German troops and their equipment is completely sunk, I do wonder what the chances are that Hitler just gives up on North Africa completely as a bad job.
I unfortunately don't think that it will be anything like that coordinated, simply the Tunisia commander going it alone.
Given the ratcheted up tension Hitler is putting on France, they probably are either rigged for demolition or to flee, and given that a ship can put to sea faster than German troops can cross France, they probably have a chance, if they choose to take it.
Last edited:
- Status