I know that on this forum Mac Arthur tends to be a figure that generates hate in the majority of posters but, is he really that stupid that he would ignore the captain of the submarine telling him sir this is a bad idea and my orders come from CICPAC.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Could just as easily still have the submarine sunk on the way to Surabaya. Safer does not mean that there is no danger and weirder things have happened in war
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
So our author has decided to write out of TTL, HIM General D MacArthur his wife, and his staff and other unnamed VIP’s. I am forced to wonder if this includes President M L Quezon and his wife, and his deputy, plus a significant amount of the Philippines treasury. This will have a major effect on events ITTL, and has repercussions for the conduct of the war and the subsequent peace. In particular who will be the American Viceroy in Japan post war, and should there be a conflict in Korea post war, who’s going to be incharged of the conduct of that campaign. However getting back to the events as are, let us examine the possible results of what has occurred. FDR is going to be a very relived man, as a serious thorn in his side and potential political rival, has been removed from the table, and he can rightly claim that it had nothing to do with him. Unfortunately his joy is only going to be short lived, as with the greater success of the British, and the removal of the one man he could have tried to place in a command position, Winston is going to demand that the entire South Western Pacific region especially Australia and New Zealand, is going to have a British commander. The one thing he can do is take the high ground, and refrain from any criticism of Mac, he can leave that up to the Navy, who are going to be incensed that a valuable submarine and its crew have been lost, because of the demands of an Army General. General Marshal while personally relieved that MacArther is no longer around, is going to be furious that Mac’s actions have put him in a position with the USN, where he is going to have to make an abject apology. And possibly if the USN insists, having to send out a a order to every Army officer that when they are aboard a Navy ship, the captain of the ship has ultimate authority. Winston who truth be told couldn’t care less about the death of an American General, will send his condolences to the American people at the loss of such a prominent American, as this will be the most senior American officer to be killed during the war. If he is asked for his opinion, he will say that in his opinion MacArthur was unwise to put all his eggs in to one basket. Which is British speak for the man was a raving egomaniac who refused to take advantage of the generous offer from the British to use a British submarine for him or some of his party, and thus brought this disaster on his own head. In the short term this incident will have very little impact on the ongoing conduct of the war, and it is only in the long term that repercussions will play out. The British will continue their successful campaign in Malaya, and trying to provide such support as they can to the American forces in the Philippines. While the Americans will at the insistence of the USN, relegate the Philippines campaign to the back burner, while concentrating on their pre war strategy of a major offensive through the central Pacific. The war in the South Western Pacific is going to take a very different path ITTL to the one followed IOTL, not only because of the death of MacArthur, but because the events in Malaysia and the DEI’s have taken such a different course than those IOTL.
RR.
RR.
Yeah, a pre-war/long service Lieutenant Commander shouldn't be a pushover.
I have to agree here, I definitely feel like that the Lieutenant Commander gave in too easily.
Just preparing you for Carden's eventual shift into small arms design. And if you thought my posts about tank guns were bad...
Shame about the crew of the Permit and the family but on the whole Allied war effort in the Pacific has received a major boost.
As a quick aside, for a fun fact, some of the Philippines' gold and silver at least 20 tons of it was brought out by USS Trout due to her requesting some ballast and that was what they had on hand; the silver and gold were brought to Peral.
This always makes me laugh because it was probably the most expensive ballast in human history.
This always makes me laugh because it was probably the most expensive ballast in human history.
Ramontxo
Donor
Not that sure, when Mac A. was bad he was very bad. When he was good he was very good. But there is a place and time when he excelled and that was post war Japan Reconstruction. And I fervently believe that what he did in Korea after Inchon was (literally) criminal.
Surprisingly not, the Spanish treasure galleons routinely used gold and silver, I believe there's even a Spanish phrase about swapping stone (the Europe to America ballast) for gold (the Americas to Europe ballast).
Maybe Quezon might have figured the British know what they're doing (and that Singapore is closer) and that evacuation to Singapore was a good bet and still be okay? Plus it would be 'not putting all the eggs in one basket'. Quezon takes a British sub to Singapore, and MacArthur takes the American one, supposedly to the Dutch East Indies, but then MacArthur tries to hijack it on the way.
(Not sure actually why MacArthur didn't want a ticket to Singapore, since it's a centre of the action, unless he figured he'd be able to simply take over Australia as his own demesne by turning up there, but that it might be more difficult to do that in Singapore.)
Problem here for the Americans is if the Imperial Japanese have in fact captured them when the sub surfaced since MacArthur and his staff know things such as the extent to which Imperial Japanese codes have been compromised by the USA. If in the next couple of updates the Imperial Japanese suddenly change all their ciphers... well, that's going to be a clue that MacArthur may now be on his way to a Prisoner of War camp.
That butterflies Midway as we know it, same with the Battle of the Coral Sea. Which frankly isn't good...
Donald Reaver
Donor
Did he send out a radio signal he was changing to a new destination? Would he say why? Seems like a mystery we will never know the answer.
Mind you, I suspect from the post it might be a rare example of them being taken prisoner, as they were surfacing. Best for those surviving, not so good for American rep.
Mind you, I suspect from the post it might be a rare example of them being taken prisoner, as they were surfacing. Best for those surviving, not so good for American rep.
Those may be gone anyway, if the Dutch East Indies hold on the southern edge or at least hold longer than in the original timeline.
In the OTL, during the landings at Leyte (Red Beach), GEN MacArthur directed the coxswain to debark his entourage at a pier. The coxswain, growled "Let 'em walk". Then he dropped the ramp and off they went.
Later that evening back aboard the flagship, it was mentioned how imperious the sailor was in his actions. The CinC for the Fleet chuckled. When the question was raised
as to how the Admiral would react, he replied. "I too would have walked." The discussion then proceeded to inform the Army staff, that only a US Naval line officer can be in command of a vessel. However, the Coxswain was in charge of the LCM. A Naval line officer would have been in command and as the Task Force commander, he would concur with the seaman's decision. That was the gist of Morison's take, when he wrote his series.
And as it would happen, the photos of everyone wet up to their knees, a determined look (anger) on GEN MacArthur's face could be sold to the American Public as righteous determination. Win-win-win!