16:51 Service to (Rail in the UK, mk2)

Devvy

Donor
board.jpg


Yes, this is a semi-remake of my earlier 12:08 British Rail tl from a few years ago. It's a very different PoD, starting from the early 1980s, with the "Fares Fair" policy working out differently, which has substantial ramifications.

No, I haven't abandoned my Nordic TL yet; I'm just still working out where I want to take it. I will return to it. However, I've had a few other ideas in my head of other things to look at, that have slowly been writing themselves in my Evernote.

Sorry for boring you all with trains again! :) I just like looking at maps, reading, and pondering what might have been....like many of us on this forum....

First chapter up later, starting with London Transport.
 

Devvy

Donor
London Transport: 1980-1990

faresfair.jpg

Fair's Fair poster from 1981.

The 1980s were, and are, considered the turning point for London Transport. The Greater London Council took on stewardship of the London Underground in 1970, and a later large part of the Labour win for the GLC in 1981 was a manifesto that included raising money through an additional local tax with which to cut ticket prices on the London Underground. It was originally intended to also subsidise British Rail operations within the capital, although this was blocked by central Government who retained control over the national rail network.

The 1981 election was won by the Labour leader Andrew McIntosh, although many suspected he would be swept aside after an election by Ken Livingstone. As it was, a leadership election was called for the day after McIntosh won. Livingstone however, in a bizarre twist of fate, slipped while walking down a flight of stairs, and subsequently breaking his leg. Caught out at hospital, McIntosh retained the Leadership of the GLC by 32-18. Livingstone would later remark that his broken leg, and subsequent slight limp robbed him of the leadership.

As it was, McIntosh continued with his manifesto commitments, including the tax subsidised reduction in ticket fares. A following court case involving the Conservative-led Bromley London Borough Council led to a series of court cases with an Appeal Court ruling the subsidised operation as illegal on a funding technicality. Although Livingstone lobbied hard to take the case to the Law Lords, McIntosh saw little point, believing that it would almost certainly be a lost cause with additional political fallout.

McIntosh formulated a new plan. Although standard fares rose back up in cost, and were frozen at the previous set of fares, a series of measures gave some limit to the impact. The flat fares overlapping zones of City and West End were retained, and the "Travelcard" was retained, giving unlimited travel for the day (outside of peak hours) for a cheap price. The main innovative measure however, was the retention of the local tax on the GLC Boroughs, but with the funnelling of the money in to a development fund. This would be used to invest in the transport system of London, for all London - crucially including those areas south of the river, therefore eliminating the legal and political arguments against it.

The taxes resulted in just a gain of almost £300,000,000 a year for the GLC's new transport fund (equal to just short of a £1 billion in today's money), a significant and large amount. In order to keep the tax politically acceptable, it needed to start producing results fast. The effect was the rapidly brought about extensions to three of London's shorter tube lines; the East London, Fleet and Bakerloo lines.

Jubilee Line

In accordance with the redevelopment of the London Docklands, for which the Conservative-run Westminster Government had placed a priority on, plans quickly surfaced for an extension through the City and on. However, where previous plans had advocated a further extension in to east London, political necessity meant the line would now turn to the south, running through Greenwich and Lewisham before taking over the Hayes branch to Hayes, Addiscombe and Beckenham Junction (which was similar to the original intentions for the then-named Fleet line). Beckenham lay within the London Borough of Bromley, therefore invalidating the previous argument that the London "transport tax" (as it had become known by critics) would not benefit the residents of Bromley. The Fleet Line project was by far and away the biggest project that the Greater London Council would embark upon, as it involved a significant amount of tunnelling and work that would take several years to come to fruition.

fleetline.jpg

Earlier proposals for Fleet Line extensions to south of the river.

Bakerloo Line

The Bakerloo line had long been a candidate for expansion, dating back as recently as 1947 for extension to Walworth and Camberwell. With the ambitious plans of the GLC however, the plans were changed. The Bricklayers Arms (ex-British Rail) branch had been sold to a redevelopment firm, but the prospect of having a London Underground station in the near vicinity was something the developers were eager to have (which would raise the later property prices). The line would be extended from Elephant and Castle towards the east mostly along New Kent Road, with a new underground station at Bricklayers Arms, before continuing along the former rail alignment (in what would turn out to be a cut and cover tunnel) before passing underneath the British Rail lines and taking over the East London Line terminus platforms at New Cross and New Cross Gate platforms in order to provide two stations for the terminating Bakerloo line service. Most of the trains would terminate at platforms at Surrey Canal Road, with 4-5 trains continuing on to New Cross and New Cross Gate each due to capacity restrictions there.

East London Line

The former "Metropolitan Railway" line remained well under-utilised by London in the 1980s, and the line was diverted away from New Cross and New Cross Gate in order to make room for the extended Bakerloo Line. The opportunity was taken to take over portions of the South London Line from British Rail, who were under constant pressure to drive down costs by the Government. East London Line services would now take over the route via Peckham Rye, East Dulwich, North Dulwich and terminate at Tulse Hill, in doing so simplifying services through Tulse Hill. The new extension would offer regular (and cheaper) London Underground services to the interchange point at Tulse Hill, making better use of the East London Line capacity and simplifying the South London rail network.

Although the Fleet extension would be expensive, it would vastly enhance connections to the City and the Docklands redevelopment area, before diving in to South London. The Bakerloo extension was the cheap extension - there was only one station underground (Bricklayers Arms), and even that was a cut and cover job, before a new interchange station at South Bermondsey with the East London Line on the surface and then using the existing stations.

newcrossgate.jpg

The former East London Line terminus at New Cross Gate in 1979.

Work began on the projects swiftly after they were expedited through the GLC for political reasons, with both extensions being completed by 1989. A subsequent development that started in the 1980s was the plans of British Rail to bring the Snow Hill tunnel (*1) out of retirement, and introduce routes that would cross London north to south. Under Livingstone's pressure (who had taken on the mantle of managing public transport in London), the GLC entered a debate with British Rail about who would run this service. British Rail, saw the route as currently BR owned and operated, and would continue to be so with a wide catchment area including a large zone outside of London. The GLC saw the route as becoming a cross-London link, and lobbied to have it become a London Underground line (albeit with larger heavy rail trains). Negotiating over the new cross-London link continued for several months, as well as debates over the future of Broad Street station - a sticking point between the GLC and British Rail (with the GLC wishing for it to stay open as a London terminus for GLC-funded services from Watford, Richmond and Clapham Junction). The debate would later result in the Government "refining" the powers of the GLC to restrict them from blocking city development in London, and downsizing the GLC. The sale of Broad Street station later went ahead.

The result was a compromise. The redevelopment of Holborn Viaduct and redirection of tracks from Blackfriars to Farringdon through a new cut and cover tunnel offered an opportunity. Both Network South East (the British Rail sector involved) and London Underground would run independent services through the centre, with the new tunnel being quadruple tracks (and the LU-side having an interchange station with the Fleet Line at Snow Hill), and the Underground platforms being situated on the former freight sidings at Farringdon. The LU tracks would then connect to the Circle/Metropolitan/Hammersmith & City lines just north of Farringdon, with Metropolitan services diverted to run south through Ludgate Circus, Blackfriars, Elephant & Castle, reinstated stations at John Ruskin Street & Camberwell, Loughborough Junction and then terminating at Herne Hill.

For Network South East, the custodians of this sector of the rail network, the new director Chris Green lobbied for the shared approach. Green, who was trying to rapidly cut the operating shortfall that NSE operated under, saw the approach as a means to further cut costs. Longer-distance passengers were, and still are, far more profitable then short-distance passengers within the price-controlled London area. This approach further allowed NSE to concentrate on the longer distance passenger travelling into London, while London Transport would concentrate on the shorter passenger flows around London. It was begrudgingly authorised by Government on the basis of reducing NSE's operating subsidy and a political counterbalance to the trimming of the GLC, and served as some political book-balancing between the Thatcher Conservative Government in Westminster, and the McIntosh Labour Council in London. There were other casualties from the fallout however; the electrification project for the East Coast Main Line north of Hitchin had been cancelled due to financial "issues", and the London Underground Chesham branch had closed due to the decrepit and falling-apart bridges (which nobody wished to fund replacements for as it lay well outside of London), as well as the Epping-Ongar stretch of the Central Line.(*2)

Although the Greater London Council had been left to pursue their expansion plans, further discontent emanated from the Conservative-run administrations in the London Boroughs of Bexley, Kingston & Sutton who still bemoaned the lack of any plan for connectivity to the London Underground. Although the introduction of zonal fares (leading to a reduction of fares), and the creation of the "Travelcard" concept in 1983 of unlimited travel for a fixed fee during off-peak hours led to greater levels of usage on the London Underground, this did not placate the three remaining Boroughs. The final answer came in 1985 with the introduction of a premium Travelcard named the "Capitalcard", which had all the benefits of the normal Travelcard but with validity upon Network South East services with the defined Zones in off-peak hours.

capitalcard.jpg

Advertising for the new CapitalCard emphasised access on all of London's transport systems, whereas the Travelcard was only valid on London Transport operated services.

Towards the middle of the decade, the London Transport Executive of the GLC was confronted with a extra project and concerns. The British Rail "Intercity 250" project was gaining ground, and plans were beginning to shape up to concentrate many Intercity services at a single London station, to cut down on costs and create a single, more cohesive, marketing identity. This would have a major impact on passenger levels on the London Underground system, and although the GLC had been investigating the "Crossrail" project in detail, the potential Intercity hub stations would require work, and probably a new line, in order to be able to distribute the vast amounts of passengers arriving at the terminus to avoid chronic overcrowding. Plans for both the "Crossrail" and "Chelsea-Hackney" lines were dusted off; the Chelsea-Hackney line popularly referred to as "Crossrail 2".

And finally, Canary Wharf was becoming a victim of it's own success. The Jubilee Line was beginning to burst at the seams during peak period, with platforms over-congested. Olympia & York, the developers of Canary Wharf were known to be eager to improve on the public transport infrastructure in the area.


----------------------
Notes:
I'm going to write this TL in topic-by-topic chapters though, and I've started with the London Underground as it pops up now and again on these boards.

So let me explain the POD here: With Livingstone breaking his leg, he doesn't manage to depose McIntosh as leader of the GLC. Livingstone's "middle finger to Thatcher" approach isn't adopted, and McIntosh's more middle road approach prevails although he is pressured by the "Red Labour" factions. The "Fares Fair" money (this is OTL: the Greater London Council implemented a tax across London, and then used this money to lower ticket prices. It didn't go down well with Thatcher's smaller Government plans) is found illegal as OTL, but then the money is redirected into LU expansion - which will benefit all London (Fares Fair was found illegal as it taxpayers in some boroughs did not have any access to London Underground and were therefore "unfairly penalised"). The Greater London Council is not dissolved by Thatcher, and the rest of the Metropolitan County Councils continue as well (mainly because any planned move to abolish them would be seen by everyone as a completely unimpartial political matter). My reading of Tory policies at the time was a general "in favour" of local autonomy; this is what made life originally difficult in "dealing" with Red Ken and the GLC. With the GLC managing to develop a transport fund, expect ramifications around the other cities. Nottingham, Birmingham, Sheffield & Manchester all managed tram systems in the 1990s; expect that to be beefed up slightly here as the 1990s roll in, with the metropolitan councils still in place.

So....

Fleet Line - extended well before it's 1990s OTL date. The line still goes through Charing Cross and Aldwych as constructed at the time (before OTL trimmed the line back to Green Park and then extended it via Waterloo to Canary Wharf and Stratford), and is then extended through east London to Canary Wharf to support the new developments there, before diving south to serve South London.

Bakerloo Line is extended, using the best of what's available and ending up with 2 terminii stations. The East London Line runs further into south London. The amount of actual tunnelling in south London is at a minimum due to unfriendly geology, so the use of existing alignments (Hayes Line, Bricklayers Arms branch, and some British Rail tracks) is maximised. Fleet Line is the only one that

The Metropolitan Line is undergoing extension in to South London. During the rebuilt of the route for Thameslink, there is ample room for a quadruple track alignment between Farringdon and Blackfriars, and plenty of sidings on the west side of Farringdon station upon which to site Underground line platforms before joining the Circle Line north of Farringdon. I'll highlight on this in the chapter for the 1990s, but there is ample room for a 4 track alignment, and plenty of ex-goods sidings on the west side of Farringdon station that can easily be reused.

Following this, the only London Boroughs not served by the London Underground are: Bexley, Kingston, Sutton. Although these councils were Conservative run at the time, the GLC manage to push through their expansion plans. OTL, Bromley Council was the one that brought down the Fares Fair policy in court; here Bromley ends up being served by Lower Sydenham and all of the stations south of it on the Hayes branch. With 3 more London Boroughs now served, and a wide body of public opinion for the plans, the GLC are left alone, especially when the Capitalcard is introduced, bringing cheaper travel to British Rail (NSE) services. Don't expect a unification of Travelcard and Capitalcard soon though.

(*1): The Snow Hill Tunnel is the central portion of what is OTL's Thameslink service, between the OTL stations of City Thameslink and Farringdon.
(*2): The Chesham branch was saved as one of the last acts by the GLC, surprisingly using up it's last funds on a section of line outside London. Here, the ongoing nature of the GLC, and it's focus on south London, means that their attention never focusses on Chesham, and the branch is left to rot away.

And finally, an obligatory tube map at 1990.
tube1990small.jpg

Link to larger version.
 
Last edited:
So how come the retention of the name Fleet Line (or have I missed something) rather than the @ change to the Jubilee Line? The Capitalcard also sounds like an early Osyster Card.

Few things jump out at me from that 1990 map:

No DLR is the most obvious.
The Central Line beyond Epping has closed. In @ it did not close until 1994; on the bright side it means we probably still get the excellent Epping Ongar Railway (well worth a visit).
The extension to the Fleet Line goes through Aldwych as origionally planned, which means that it won't become a Ghost Station. LU will need to replace the lifts around 1994, however.

Cancelling the electrification of the ECML north of Hitchin is going to have an effect on journey times between Edinburgh and London. It will also mean that IC East Coast will need to retain more HST sets.
Hopefully this is something that can be reinstated later. I can just see how upset us Scots and the Northern English will be at losing out on improved travel times because of money being diverted to fund projects in London.
 

Devvy

Donor
So how come the retention of the name Fleet Line (or have I missed something) rather than the @ change to the Jubilee Line? The Capitalcard also sounds like an early Osyster Card.

Ta - correcting. I just started typing Fleet Line having it in my head. Name changed to Jubilee in 70s. As for Capitalcard, that's actually OTL - Travelcard wasn't valid on BR services for most of the 80s. I just plan on the difference sticking around here a bit longer for some butterflies and interest later.

No DLR is the most obvious.

I'm not going to lie. I hate the DLR. Every time I use it, I feel I could walk faster.

The Central Line beyond Epping has closed. In @ it did not close until 1994; on the bright side it means we probably still get the excellent Epping Ongar Railway (well worth a visit).

Forgot to mention that in the blurb. As well as withdrawing from Chesham, the motion to close Chesham covers Epping - Ongar as well, ending up with the same situation earlier. It was always a stub part of the line far as I can tell, and so the division of "that extra bit on the end of the line" is easily sliceable off the end.

The extension to the Fleet Line goes through Aldwych as origionally planned, which means that it won't become a Ghost Station. LU will need to replace the lifts around 1994, however.

Yep; less places to film tv/films from. Maybe just the stub Piccadilly Line platforms at Aldwych for V for Vendetta to film from!

Cancelling the electrification of the ECML north of Hitchin is going to have an effect on journey times between Edinburgh and London. It will also mean that IC East Coast will need to retain more HST sets.

Hopefully this is something that can be reinstated later. I can just see how upset us Scots and the Northern English will be at losing out on improved travel times because of money being diverted to fund projects in London.

Part of the ramifications for transport spending in the capital is some pushback on funding for BR in the 1980s. That will bounce in the 1990s, as the WCML and ECML become desperate for upgrades, hence the IC250 mention. I'm actually setting it up for a better system then OTL, with dedicated "high speed" (although don't expect any TGV running in the UK! Just infrastructure to support in-cab signalling and higher then 125mph running) lines. We'll get to that when I cover Intercity at some point.
 
Aw, you beauty! The Jubilee down to Croydon! (reusing the Tramlink map for bits I see - I did the same for bits of my London Atmospheric timeline, which I'm guessing you'd enjoy: http://thecroydoncitizen.com/history/counterfactual-croydon-croydons-atmospheric-railway/ )

However, I'm going to make a silly point that you'll probably shoot down but nevertheless I feel my local knowledge must be shared: If the Jubilee went all the way to Addiscombe, I very much think they'd go the extra mile (literally) to East Croydon, or at least a separate station that was walkable from East Croydon and 'branded' as East Croydon. It's not that far at all between East Croydon and Addiscombe on the current tram network (three stops), and it's a simple straight line.

If you'd rather not retcon ECS onto the Jubilee, I'd very much recommend an in-universe long-standing campaign movement to extend 'the Addiscombe branch' down to East Croydon. I can guarantee you it would exist!

I do enjoy your railway TLs, even though they always remind me I'm not a proper gricer. I don't know half the things you talk about, and I'm normally the train buff in a conversation.
 

Devvy

Donor
I wonder if the Chesham Branch might be revived at some point? Either as an LU operation, or as a counterpart to the Epping Ongar.

Stay tuned for that, suffice to say nothing is ever dead. I think I remember a quote from someone high in TfL saying something along the lines of "building new lines in London isn't a case of actually building new lines, it's now reusing and refashioning what you already have".

Aw, you beauty! The Jubilee down to Croydon! (reusing the Tramlink map for bits I see - I did the same for bits of my London Atmospheric timeline, which I'm guessing you'd enjoy: http://thecroydoncitizen.com/history/counterfactual-croydon-croydons-atmospheric-railway/ )

However, I'm going to make a silly point that you'll probably shoot down but nevertheless I feel my local knowledge must be shared: If the Jubilee went all the way to Addiscombe, I very much think they'd go the extra mile (literally) to East Croydon, or at least a separate station that was walkable from East Croydon and 'branded' as East Croydon. It's not that far at all between East Croydon and Addiscombe on the current tram network (three stops), and it's a simple straight line.

If you'd rather not retcon ECS onto the Jubilee, I'd very much recommend an in-universe long-standing campaign movement to extend 'the Addiscombe branch' down to East Croydon. I can guarantee you it would exist!

I do enjoy your railway TLs, even though they always remind me I'm not a proper gricer. I don't know half the things you talk about, and I'm normally the train buff in a conversation.

Must have a chat one of these meet ups!

About Addiscombe, I left it terminating there as it's supposed to be a quick/easy set of works for the Jubilee Line south of Lewisham and the tracks are largely in place to there. But stay tuned....trams can still appear :)
 
Stay tuned for that, suffice to say nothing is ever dead. I think I remember a quote from someone high in TfL saying something along the lines of "building new lines in London isn't a case of actually building new lines, it's now reusing and refashioning what you already have".



Must have a chat one of these meet ups!

About Addiscombe, I left it terminating there as it's supposed to be a quick/easy set of works for the Jubilee Line south of Lewisham and the tracks are largely in place to there. But stay tuned....trams can still appear :)

I'm glad there's the possibility Chesham will get back on the line. As it is, TTL I will probably make fewer trips to London with my grandparents when visiting them. We would probably drive to Amersham and leave the car there, but that's a bit more inconvenient than walking to get the tube.
 
I'm not going to lie. I hate the DLR. Every time I use it, I feel I could walk faster.

I always feel that it doesn't really feel like part of the LU network. It is also very easy at some stations to accidentally (or otherwise) forget to swipe in with one's Oyster because there are no barriers.

Forgot to mention that in the blurb. As well as withdrawing from Chesham, the motion to close Chesham covers Epping - Ongar as well, ending up with the same situation earlier. It was always a stub part of the line far as I can tell, and so the division of "that extra bit on the end of the line" is easily sliceable off the end.

Apparently Blake Halt on the Epping-Ongar section was the least busy station on the network. It only had something like half a dozen passengers a day. It is now a house; the occupants seem to own what looks like an old LT RM bus.

I'm actually setting it up for a better system then OTL, with dedicated "high speed" (although don't expect any TGV running in the UK! Just infrastructure to support in-cab signalling and higher then 125mph running) lines. We'll get to that when I cover Intercity at some point.

Since I found out about it I've thought that IC250 was a real missed opportunity. Plus the Class 93 loco looks really cool! :D

Stay tuned for that, suffice to say nothing is ever dead. I think I remember a quote from someone high in TfL saying something along the lines of "building new lines in London isn't a case of actually building new lines, it's now reusing and refashioning what you already have".

I can imagine a 'Restore the Chesham Branch' campaign getting started. Especially if the local roads are congested.
 
Very interesting timeline.
I have some questions
DLR
So the Fleet (Jubliee line) take over some what would be the DLR, so we get no DLR, how does that effect the development of the "Eastern Docklands" and the building of City Airport? It is forgotten that GLC under Livingstone opposed both the DLR & the building of City Airport!!
Fleet Line
Makes sense to have it go to Hayes. There is still talk of the DLR taking over that line from Lewisham.
Bakerloo Line
In the south might not it be extended from the two "New Cross Stations" New Cross to Lewisham & New Cross Gate to West Croydon (taking over what is in OTL the London Overground lines to West Croydon & Crystal Palace)
Also on the Northern End of the Bakerloo Line still ends at Harrow & Wealdstone with Watford Services ending in 1989 after being cut back, with some services ending at Stonebridge come 1982.
Met Line
No don't close the Chesham Branch line as it was. Of course now in OTL it now has direct trains once again into Central London (since 2011), originally that line wasn't meant to end at Chesham and was meant to terminate at Tring joining up with East Coast Mainline.
Also what about the "Croxley Rail Link" does the 1989 plan to run trains from Aylesbury via the "Croxley Curve" via the Old BR line at Croxley, happen as it was planned to by 1996 to Watford Junction and onto St Albans & Luton. Watford Met was planned to have been kept open under the 89 plan which isn't going to happen in five years time, which is wrong in my opinion. The current plan doesn't have the scope of the 1989 plans.
Bromley North
Would it not be possible to get Bromley North onto the Tube by extending the Bakerloo or "Fleet Lines" from either New Cross or Lewisham to take over the Grove Park to Bromley North branch line.

Anyway keep up the good work. Loved the map BTW!
 
Also meant to ask where the "Isle of Dogs" station is based, it doesn't look like OTL "Island Gardens" which has 2 different stations on the DLR, so I guessing its where "Mudchute" is now, although like Island Gardens it has had two different locations.
 
Interesting this because I've got an idea for a TL where the major London stations are built in ways that allow cross London working - so they are not just terminals. If you go back to the very beginning of rail construction in London you have a huge impact on how the city develops as well of course as the development of the Underground. It is still very vague though so may never get written.
 

Devvy

Donor
Wow, nice to see some chat while I've been at work :)

Excellent, now how about the GOBLIN line.

Don't hope too hard on that; I have designs on North London Line operations, and freight has to traverse London somehow.

I always feel that it doesn't really feel like part of the LU network. It is also very easy at some stations to accidentally (or otherwise) forget to swipe in with one's Oyster because there are no barriers.

When I used to use the DLR, I saw countless people caught out by that.

Since I found out about it I've thought that IC250 was a real missed opportunity. Plus the Class 93 loco looks really cool! :D

Quite! :)

Good to see this T/L reincarnated!

I'll be keeping an eye on what happens!

Nice to have you along!

Very interesting timeline.
I have some questions
DLR
So the Fleet (Jubliee line) take over some what would be the DLR, so we get no DLR, how does that effect the development of the "Eastern Docklands" and the building of City Airport? It is forgotten that GLC under Livingstone opposed both the DLR & the building of City Airport!!

I think the airport would probably be developed anyway; it's well connected by road to the right areas, and Ken has hit OTL wish of no DLR then. Proper tube to the Docklands.

Fleet Line
Makes sense to have it go to Hayes. There is still talk of the DLR taking over that line from Lewisham.

I've not seen too many of the DLR expanding down there, (as the DLR has completely incompatible infrastructure), but I've seen plenty of paperwork OTL about the Bakerloo taking over it. Network Rail seem to be in favour of it, Hayes Line commuters less so. Jury is open on it.

Bakerloo Line
In the south might not it be extended from the two "New Cross Stations" New Cross to Lewisham & New Cross Gate to West Croydon (taking over what is in OTL the London Overground lines to West Croydon & Crystal Palace)
Also on the Northern End of the Bakerloo Line still ends at Harrow & Wealdstone with Watford Services ending in 1989 after being cut back, with some services ending at Stonebridge come 1982.

Bear in mind the Underground trains need a 4th rail for electrification; extension to New Cross and New Cross Gate is easy as the platforms are ready and waiting. Extending down is a little more complicated. Never say never though!

Met Line
No don't close the Chesham Branch line as it was. Of course now in OTL it now has direct trains once again into Central London (since 2011), originally that line wasn't meant to end at Chesham and was meant to terminate at Tring joining up with East Coast Mainline.
Also what about the "Croxley Rail Link" does the 1989 plan to run trains from Aylesbury via the "Croxley Curve" via the Old BR line at Croxley, happen as it was planned to by 1996 to Watford Junction and onto St Albans & Luton. Watford Met was planned to have been kept open under the 89 plan which isn't going to happen in five years time, which is wrong in my opinion. The current plan doesn't have the scope of the 1989 plans.

I can imagine a 'Restore the Chesham Branch' campaign getting started. Especially if the local roads are congested.

The Chesham Branch was in a really bad state at the start of the 1980s, and I just don't see where the funds are going to come from to repair it. It's well outside of London, and without the GLC being abolished and spending funds willy nilly in it's final days, I don't think it'll fund the necessary repairs. (PS: The Chesham Branch was supposed to extend to Tring on the West Coast Main Line ;) ). As for the Croxley Link; it's difficult. You can only do so much at a time, it will require infrastructure as per OTL to link the 2 sections together. Also, there is no way to traverse Watford without disrupting express operations, and then the branch only goes to St Albans (the link on to Luton is a different alignment, but close by). I don't see the demand for it justifying the outlay required to cross Watford on a bridge to be honest. Oxford-Aylesbury-Amersham-Watford is a possibility for the future though.

Don't despair though, wealthy home counties commuters always manage to make their voice heard. You only have to look at OTL with regards to the Crossrail extension to Reading on that!

Bromley North
Would it not be possible to get Bromley North onto the Tube by extending the Bakerloo or "Fleet Lines" from either New Cross or Lewisham to take over the Grove Park to Bromley North branch line.

Anyway keep up the good work. Loved the map BTW!

On paper, Bromley North is a nice candidate. In reality; probably not. The branch isn't busy enough for an LU service, let alone funding the tunnelling to get there, and the SEML is busy enough without trying to funnel extra trains to Bromley North. Most commuters will walk (and do) to Bromley South.

Will the 12.08 go in the finished timelines?

I would; but I don't really know how to. I don't have my notes any more for it - I used to use txt files in those days. I use Evernote now, so it's easy to root through and bring together notes.

Also meant to ask where the "Isle of Dogs" station is based, it doesn't look like OTL "Island Gardens" which has 2 different stations on the DLR, so I guessing its where "Mudchute" is now, although like Island Gardens it has had two different locations.

I'd say Mudchute. Here's a map of the Docklands Enterprise Area (orange is the area), with a quick and dirty mspaint job of the Jubilee Line and stations on it.

docklands.jpg


Interesting this because I've got an idea for a TL where the major London stations are built in ways that allow cross London working - so they are not just terminals. If you go back to the very beginning of rail construction in London you have a huge impact on how the city develops as well of course as the development of the Underground. It is still very vague though so may never get written.

I think many of the rail lines wanted to do so, but the powers that be in Government were not too keen on "those dirty stinky trains ruining our city", which was defined as that area roughly correlating to the congestion charge zone today north of the river. Beat that, and I think most rail companies will do the rest for you.
 
Last edited:
Top