32 county island of Ireland in NATO

concievably although i suspect the number would be closer to 6 than 9 )
True it would depend I suppose on how much support the RAF would give with 49 production units, 6-9 would add some bit to the force structure and improve the chances other exports perhaps?

alternatively transalls as a cheaper option than hercs
The Belfast's get you more capability than the Herc's or the Tranaslls, looking at the numbers maybe 4-6 might make more sense. Also consider the ramifications of Ireland's actions in WW2, would the UK be in slightly better position, meaning the RAF may keep the Belfast?

or the NATO E3 component has a couple more aircraft and base in Ireland as well as Luxembourg ...
That might be it or some connections to the RAF unit, either way it would be a useful force structure for the European area I think.

an off the wall option here would be the Irish air corps flying Harriers as their sole combat airframe after a short period on Hunters or some such with the Sea Harrier being used in the air defence role from land bases ( adding further fun the 'mixed fighter force' idea which gained momentum in the 1970s and 80s in NATO using phantom/ f15 / tornado ADV as flight leads and thena number of smaller more austere aircraft as carriers for extra missles and gun packs - the RAF version had the weapons training Hawks as the carriers of extra missiles ) and GR versions as it;s 'attack' aircraft ...
That's another option for a small force structure 2 squadrons worth of them? Of course that open ups other butterflies, if Ireland selected the Sea Harrier then might it get upgrades (since 2 squadrons would be about 2/3 of the RN order). Say the OTL Vampires till 1960 say then the Hunter till 1980 then the Shar. None of them are top of the table but would give Ireland some capabilty.
 
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That's another option for a small force structure 2 squadrons worth of them? Of course that open ups other butterflies, if Ireland selected the Sea Harrier then might it get upgrades (since 2 squadrons would be about 2/3 of the RN order). Say the OTL Vampires till 1960 say then the Hunter till 1980 then the Shar. None of them are top of the table but would give Ireland some capabilty.

it would also allow the operation from 'austere' operating bases rather than the full sized airfield needed to operate the F5 / F16 etc ... look at the plans of RAFG to 'bug out ' into the woods with the attack Harrier in pure VTOL form

or the 'airstrip' needed to operate the harrier as a STOVL aircraft in the way the RN did off the Invincible class TDC/ Carrier
 
I've put forward suggestion for a Navy and Air Force OOB so the last question is the Irish Army. I have thoughts of something like 10,000 strong Army, based off the Portuguese numbers with modifications to increase Navy and the Air force.

What would be the most likely option that Ireland would be carrying out? Would Ireland have a force in Germany or something else. I have an idea of a Royal Marine type force structure, but that's just my idea. Would that give more value then another Light Infantry Brigade in Western Europe? Assume again that Ireland selects British Equipment just for a bench mark.

What Helicopters would Ireland pick and would that make any difference to production runs. I'm assuming Lynx and Sea King (the Naval variant).

In terms of a RFA would it make sense to have say 1-2 Rover class and then following on to 1 Fort Victoria in modern times.
 

Pangur

Donor
I think we need to be careful how we are responding & contributing to this thread by which I mean we should break it out by decade/decades. By suggestion would be divding it up some thing along these lines


1912-1934

1935-1939

1939-1945

1945- 1960

1960-1990

1990-2012
 
Not many Irish threads get such a response in terms of volume!

possibly because it's not focused around home rule it's thread about later on and it's not ended up all about the 'RA vs the black and tans ... as sparky suggests there are entirely feasible PoDs in the period 1912 to 1939 that leads to Ireland being alignedwith the Alliesin WW2 and then 'falling into ' NATO membership

The premise sees a none neutral Ireland, although I said 32 county in the OP a none neutral 26 county Republic would still provide the opportunity to explore Ireland;s role in NATO ( and the relative poverty of Ireland post war gets a bit of handwaving by NATO /US forces in Europe investment - even one USAF and one USN facility could bring millions of dollars into the economy just from the impact of building it and then the locally spent wages and purchasing of the US personnel, locally sourced supplies purchased by the bases and the wages of local civilians working on the bases / in local service industries ...
 
I've put forward suggestion for a Navy and Air Force OOB so the last question is the Irish Army. I have thoughts of something like 10,000 strong Army, based off the Portuguese numbers with modifications to increase Navy and the Air force.

What would be the most likely option that Ireland would be carrying out? Would Ireland have a force in Germany or something else. I have an idea of a Royal Marine type force structure, but that's just my idea. Would that give more value then another Light Infantry Brigade in Western Europe? Assume again that Ireland selects British Equipment just for a bench mark.

What Helicopters would Ireland pick and would that make any difference to production runs. I'm assuming Lynx and Sea King (the Naval variant).

In terms of a RFA would it make sense to have say 1-2 Rover class and then following on to 1 Fort Victoria in modern times.

You could have an Irish marine corps that worked and trained very closely with the Royal Marines for NATO operations, much as British and Dutch marines do, so would form part of the UK-Netherlands amphibious force for use (principally) in Scandinavia. That could justify an RFA amphibious vessel too. Or a small light brigade based in Germany instead.

Remainder of army could be largely territorial - would this Ireland still be so committed to UN operations if not neutral?

Really can't see harriers being chosen as sole aircraft: very useful in places and for certain tasks, but also have disadvantages that would make conventional aircraft better: the Swedes opted for stol aircraft rather than vtol aircraft, and if anyone pursued a wartime policy of dispersal it was them.

I could imagine that if there was any tactical air component (which would not be necessary, but if the 'air force lobby' was strong), very similar to RNZAF. Moreover, in the 1950s/60s the US would like have been happy to furnish them with some F5s for point defence of any NATO facilities in Ireland.
 

Pangur

Donor
You could have an Irish marine corps that worked and trained very closely with the Royal Marines for NATO operations, much as British and Dutch marines do, so would form part of the UK-Netherlands amphibious force for use (principally) in Scandinavia. That could justify an RFA amphibious vessel too. Or a small light brigade based in Germany instead.

Remainder of army could be largely territorial - would this Ireland still be so committed to UN operations if not neutral?

Really can't see harriers being chosen as sole aircraft: very useful in places and for certain tasks, but also have disadvantages that would make conventional aircraft better: the Swedes opted for stol aircraft rather than vtol aircraft, and if anyone pursued a wartime policy of dispersal it was them.

I could imagine that if there was any tactical air component (which would not be necessary, but if the 'air force lobby' was strong), very similar to RNZAF. Moreover, in the 1950s/60s the US would like have been happy to furnish them with some F5s for point defence of any NATO facilities in Ireland.

Believe it or not the Irish did have marines - a very small force for sure during ww2!
 

Pangur

Donor
Strange ideas that crosses your mind --- and maybe well of topic

Ok folks, the out right love of JFK by the Irish is VERY true, the stories of a pic pic of the pope on one wall and JFK on the other are all very true. So if JFK had not been murdered and won the next election all he had to do was snag his fingers and the Irish would have ponied up a battalion for Vietnam. Now lets think about where that leaves us
 

Pangur

Donor
Anther set of ideas

In ww2 the British were willing to trow Aussie to the wolves - no modern aircraft. I can't see them doing that to Ireland regardless of our status seeing a Ireland are protecting the back door as it were but it has got me thinking about the Aussie CAC expanding to selling aircraft to the Irish


Another idea, post ww2 I can see any Irish air force going more towards buying US- after all the US may well be helping to pay for the kit after all. Example reflueing - the yanks would want ne be sure that their aircraft could reflue - best way is to have say a KC-135 rather than UK kit.
 
Anther set of ideas

In ww2 the British were willing to trow Aussie to the wolves - no modern aircraft. I can't see them doing that to Ireland regardless of our status seeing a Ireland are protecting the back door as it were but it has got me thinking about the Aussie CAC expanding to selling aircraft to the Irish


Another idea, post ww2 I can see any Irish air force going more towards buying US- after all the US may well be helping to pay for the kit after all. Example reflueing - the yanks would want ne be sure that their aircraft could reflue - best way is to have say a KC-135 rather than UK kit.

For WW2 I don't see the RAF not supporting the RIAF, I think Ireland would be to valuable for them (particularly if they're using it as you suggested as training)

The refueling I could certainly see being KC-135's, but that introduces a butterfly to the RAF, would they support the Patrols over the Atlantic. What effect would that have on the Valiant tankers and then Victors for example. (which might be interesting in Falklands).

I'm actually throwing together a rough out line of forces at the moment, I don't think it's to crazy.
 
You could have an Irish marine corps that worked and trained very closely with the Royal Marines for NATO operations, much as British and Dutch marines do, so would form part of the UK-Netherlands amphibious force for use (principally) in Scandinavia. That could justify an RFA amphibious vessel too. Or a small light brigade based in Germany instead.

Remainder of army could be largely territorial - would this Ireland still be so committed to UN operations if not neutral?

Really can't see harriers being chosen as sole aircraft: very useful in places and for certain tasks, but also have disadvantages that would make conventional aircraft better: the Swedes opted for stol aircraft rather than vtol aircraft, and if anyone pursued a wartime policy of dispersal it was them.

I could imagine that if there was any tactical air component (which would not be necessary, but if the 'air force lobby' was strong), very similar to RNZAF. Moreover, in the 1950s/60s the US would like have been happy to furnish them with some F5s for point defence of any NATO facilities in Ireland.

That was something I was thinking about, say a third Fearless class (maybe a roundtable class as well) in the 60's and then maybe a third Albion and Bay in the modern era?

As for UN operations I think it could go either way, maybe the reserve forces do that leaving the standing force for NATO operations? If Ireland was in NATO would that influence any of the Deployments that Ireland has made OTL.

As for fighters would NATO agree that Ireland wouldn't need an Irish fighter defence (leaving it to USAF/RAF)?
 
Here's a rough idea of an OOB. Feel free to whack any crazy ideas I've had

Irish OOB 1912-34

Assume OTL with mods, ( no UVF,IVF) thus lower preparedness levels at outbreak.

Intermix officers rather than separate.

Higher Volunteer level say 250K-300K, loses higher say 45K-50K

Wide range of naval forces through WW1 and enlarged with USN presence in 1917.
Greater investment in Irish Ports due to better internal politics.

Post WW1
Army
Downsizes to original force of 8 Regiments. (possible restructuring from moving from Garrison to larger Barracks.)

Air Force
Formation of RIAF (Royal Irish Air Force) 2 squadrons of Flying boat based in WW1 bases to provide coverage of the Western approaches.

Navy
Joint RN and RIN presence, possibly 8-12 Destroyers (either preWW1 or V&W perhaps, with the RN helping costs due to Shipping losses in WW1).
As sign of internal support UK helps support construction of County class (Kent class). RN Sub base maintain perhaps?

1935-1939.

Army.
Infantry Regiments begin to be restored to WW1 levels due to growing tensions.
The North and South Horses reconstituted as Armoured Car Regiment, being upgraded to Armoured Units later.

Airforce.
Coastal Command continues 2 Squadron level of Flying Boats patrolling the Approaches (upgrading to Sunderlands).
Fighter Command created (2 Squadrons of Gladiators perhaps)

Navy. A Town Class Cruiser laid down in 1935, commissioning in ’37 followed by repeat build (OTL Belfast commissioning in ‘39).
A further half squadron of Destroyers added to RIN.

1939-1945.

Army.
Back to WW1 3 division level with Armoured Brigade (North and South Horses).

Airforce.
Sustaining Flying boat Squadron and augmented by VLR squadron, US forces and more VLR Squadrons.
Fighter Squadrons enlarged to 4 with 2 deployed outside Ireland.
Centre for training aircrew for Allied Forces.

Navy.
OTL damage to HMS Belfast, perhaps another is borrowed to make up the loss (Black Prince?). Perhaps Cork handles more of the Repairs to Damaged ships allowing H&W to finish the ships under construction quicker.
Figure Corvettes are made a priority for the RIN.
Losses of about 1/3 of Destroyers through war.

Lough Swilly used as Convoy gathering point, this plus air cover and naval bases reduce Convoy loses.

1945-1960
Army.
Reduced to Prewar Regiments (Horse’s remain amalgamated as Armoured unit).
1 Regiment deployed to Korea with armoured support.
1 Regiment remains deployed in Germany.

Airforce.
WW2 surplus airframes are used to support ASW operations.
Fighter Command retains De Havilland Vampire Jets (reduced to 2 squadrons).
1955 (due to 1953 British White Paper) 24 Shorts Seamew’s available for ASW work, allowing the retirement of WW2 airframes.

Navy.
County Class (if survives) worn out, decommissioned.
Remaining Cruisers continues service in Commonwealth operations (eg Korea) then retired. Corvettes decommissioned.
Remaining Destroyers (perhaps with RN surplus) remain in service unmodified till replaced in 1950’s (9 Type 14’s perhaps).

1960-1990

Army.
Significant restructure to Marine type forces to reinforce NATO Northern Flank (3rd Commando Brigade size), would Ireland keep an Armoured battalion force for supporting amphib operations (perhaps last gen tanks?).
NATO standard helicopter support elements (Lynx, Sea King Commando)

Airforce.
Fighter’s discontinued due to rising costs plus increasing US/UK support.
4-6 KC 135’s acquired 1965 with US support for supporting NATO operations in patrol and resupply.
For ASW 6-8 Nimrods acquired in the early to mid 1970’s.
For NATO transport operations and to support forces in the Northern flank, 4 Short Belfast transport operations acquired. With RAF standing down their squadron (assuming OTL) then 2 more airframes and spares acquired.
Mid 1980’s 2 E-3’s acquired as part of NATO AWAC’s program.
6-9 SeaKings acquired for Coastguard operations.
Assume OTL upgrades.
Could Irish forces aide British forces in Falklands War?

Navy.
Type 14’s replaced with Type 21’s (could this be a 1-1?).
2 Rover RFA’s acquired to replace legacy support ships.
Fearless class acquired for Marine forces (perhaps with 1 Round table).
Formation of minesweeper Squadron for NATO deployment (9 Ton Class?) developing with RN OTL class.
Due to Cod War and fishing incursions perhaps 4-6 OPV's built domestically (crewed from Reserve/Cadet/Private crew perhaps)

1990-2012.

Army.
Modifications for post Cold War operations (assume Royal Marine modifications)
Operations in Gulf War, Balkans, GWOT.
Would Ireland stay with Lynx (Wildcat), Merlin replacing Sea King.

AirForce.
Due to post Cold War decisions
Ireland decides not to join Nimrod MR4 program and decommission’s them in the mid 2000’s replacing them with CASA 295 MPA (6ish)
Belfast transport’s worn out, replaced by 2 C 17’s in NATO procurement augmented by Tactical Transports due to combat needs (6 295’s?)

Navy.
Combat experience of Falklands and Tanker War displays weaknesses in the cheap option of Type 21. Decision taken to replace with Type 23’s (maybe reduction to 6 hulls)
3rd Fearless replaced with 3rd Albion class.
Roundtable replaced with Bay class.
Fort Victoria class RFA procured, 1 Rover class retained for overseas deployments.
Minesweeper Squadron maintained at 9 hulls permanently deployed overseas.
 
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Interesting thread. Sorry if I am asking things that have already been dealt with. Qith Ireland a fully contributing memer of NATO I wonder what would end up being based in Ireland rather than say the UK?

Sosus based in Ireland rather than say Brawdy (and then St Mawgan)?

A Naval Air facility on the West coast with P3s (possibly sharing a RIAF base)?

USN faciities at one of former treaty ports?

Shannon with a significant USAF airlift presence (and no Aeroflot stopovers)?
 
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Interesting thread. Sorry if I am asking things that have already been dealt with. Qith Ireland a fully contributing memer of NATO I wonder what would end up being based in Ireland rather than say the UK?

Sosus based in Oreland rather than say Brawdy (and then St Mawgan)?

A Naval Air facility on the West coast with P3s (possibly sharing a RIAF base)?

USN faciities at one of former treaty ports?

Shannon with a significant USAF airlift presence (and no Aeroflot stopovers)?

I don't see why SOSUS couldn't be based in Ireland instead of the UK.

I'm presuming that there would be a large base from WW2 somewhere on the West Coast (it could support more than just P3s maybe tankers as well at the very least.

Given the history of the USN in Cork in WW1 and presume some level of USN in WW2 then I don't see why not, if Cork is built up to support the "RIN" then a repair ship could be based there as well. Maybe some frigates or Destroyers based out of Cork?
 
I don't see why SOSUS couldn't be based in Ireland instead of the UK.

I'm presuming that there would be a large base from WW2 somewhere on the West Coast (it could support more than just P3s maybe tankers as well at the very least.

Given the history of the USN in Cork in WW1 and presume some level of USN in WW2 then I don't see why not, if Cork is built up to support the "RIN" then a repair ship could be based there as well. Maybe some frigates or Destroyers based out of Cork?

A nice big base somewhere in Galway? Perhaps then a fair sized USAF presence there too with some of the aircraft otherwise based at MIldenhall, including the SR71!
 
Be interesting to see what kind of economy a combined Ireland would've achieved, given that The Troubles scared off investors for many decades from NI and the agrarian, heavily religiously influenced direction of the Republic from the 1920s-60s. Assuming development in keeping with other smaller Western European nations without the benefit of oil etc, probably make it into an equivalent of a Belgium or Denmark?

I think you have it right that their fighter aircraft would essentially become negligible post-Cold War and be surrendered given their position, with the RAF, USAF and French all around them, between them and the enemy.

One idea is for Ireland deploying US A7 Corsairs from 1960s-1980s, designed for long range strike missions: useful against any Soviet surface craft and could be deployed to other nations' airfields to cover other areas during wartime. They'd also be able to conduct basic air-to-air missions against reconnaissance aircraft etc.

Falklands: depending on the relationship with the UK, but I can't imagine them actively participating, but NZ did send a frigate to relieve an RN ship of patrol duties, so maybe something along these lines.
 
A nice big base somewhere in Galway? Perhaps then a fair sized USAF presence there too with some of the aircraft otherwise based at MIldenhall, including the SR71!

I was thinking perhaps further north at Sligo maybe for the major base. There are certainly a number of spots you could go to, would somewhere around Derry be better for patrolling the GIUK Gap?

Given the mission for the SR 71 I think based in the UK would make more sense.
 
A nice big base somewhere in Galway? Perhaps then a fair sized USAF presence there too with some of the aircraft otherwise based at MIldenhall, including the SR71!

I could imagine the US wanting to have access to the sparsely populated flatter areas of Western Ireland for sneaky-beaky bases just like that, alongside more prosaic installations.
 
Be interesting to see what kind of economy a combined Ireland would've achieved, given that The Troubles scared off investors for many decades from NI and the agrarian, heavily religiously influenced direction of the Republic from the 1920s-60s. Assuming development in keeping with other smaller Western European nations without the benefit of oil etc, probably make it into an equivalent of a Belgium or Denmark?

I think you have it right that their fighter aircraft would essentially become negligible post-Cold War and be surrendered given their position, with the RAF, USAF and French all around them, between them and the enemy.

One idea is for Ireland deploying US A7 Corsairs from 1960s-1980s, designed for long range strike missions: useful against any Soviet surface craft and could be deployed to other nations' airfields to cover other areas during wartime. They'd also be able to conduct basic air-to-air missions against reconnaissance aircraft etc.

Falklands: depending on the relationship with the UK, but I can't imagine them actively participating, but NZ did send a frigate to relieve an RN ship of patrol duties, so maybe something along these lines.

There's a far bit of flex in the Economy I think, take out the War of Independence, Civil War, Economic War and as you said the policies up till the 60's and there's potential for Ireland be substantially better then OTL. Add in the benefit of Marshall and NATO investment for infrastructure things. There could also be changes like going to Nuclear Power to reduce costs (OTL the ESB floated this idea in the 70's). You also end up with a population that could be between 6-8 million depending on how things worked.

As to fighter power it would depend, would 2 squadrons worth make sense for the investment necessary. The support capabilities of the RIAF I've suggested might be worth more to NATO, particularly if it comes to a trade off.

For Falklands, I'd see Ireland taking over some of the North Atlantic Duties, maybe sending 1 Rover to Gibraltar to refuel RN ships? Also in OTL some of the Belfast's were used to resupply so that might happen. The other point is could the UK "borrow" hulls and tankers for non-combat roles. 1 KC 135 would change the Black Buck mission.

Other than that do you think the OOB is reasonable
 
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