The idea of using the Austro-Hungarian imperial legacy to justify a modern state is definitely something that some members of both countries' governments are supportive of. Most of the people in these countries, however, are pretty done with the idea of grotesque fusion-states
8mm to the Left: If Hitler Died in 1923
- Thread starter KaiserKatze
- Start date
Isn’t being surrounded by subordinates who feed you false information fun? /s
Speaking of which, how much would this certain Mr. Hitler be prominent in the history books ITTL, especially with how he died in the Beer Hall Putsch and all that?
Let's hope Otto can pull it off. the habsburgs deserve a second chance
Probably mostly forgotten about, I mean he failed miserably and died and wasn't even the first to try a coup and at that point he wasn't even the head of the only ultra right group trying to get going at that time. Notably this is before even Mein Kampf so beyond a very few Völkischer Beobachter copies and the memories of a few aging Nazi's there won't even be a record of what he said or his so called "program." At most it might be "Wasn't he that guy President Goering knew in the 20's? What was he? Can't remember, could have been Herman's warm up man at speeches..."
Broadly he's likely to end like Drexler did OTL, a footnote in the career of a far more famous man...
Hitler is going to be a niche name even among academics of this world. His party will be known and discussed, sure, but he himself was just a somewhat-popular guy during its early days who shows a lot of potential but died before it went anywhere. Most speculation in this world would be more tied to Göring, with common perception being that Göring would have risen to become the dictator and Hitler being killed off or otherwise forgotten.
Which he very well might have. Fat Hermann was actually extremely competent after all, he just ruined himself with drugs due to his injuries in the OTL putsch. As Nuremberg proved if he stays clean he'd be dangerous competent and a decent speaker even if overshadowed by Hitler.
Also to an extent in '23 Hitler was still presenting himself as the "drummer" for the "coming man" (although by then he was seemingly pretty certain that man was himself). Given he was an ex corporal and Göring was a dashing war hero (who ITTL still has his looks and could as I said be President later on) it's easy to believe Hitler would have only been Göring's corner man in the rise to power.
Certainly I could see this world's Ian Kershaw devoting a chapter on Hitler in a monumental Göring biography much as many of us in the English speaking world first really heard of Drexler from the Hitler one.
Hope the comunists revolt and get crushed , they would impose a soviet style regime if they could , scum .
On that note, what would be interesting would be how the more “revolutionary” Nazis and the essentially Fascist DNVP of Hugenberg TTL would be seen in TTL’s historiography.
Yeah I'd imagine that the Austrians would see their brief stint as an independent nation pretty poorly, considering what happened...
Yeah I defo see ppl pushing for liberalisation post L-V (maybe we get a war in the 40s to early 50s, which pushes L-V to be called 'one of the greatest men of German history') since he would be seen as untouchable by everyone post war.
And with Britain and Germany working together in the Balkans, would Bulgaria be able to work against them? At most I see that there's a guarantee of voting to leave or stay in Yugoslavia for Kosovo and Macedonia, which would already be quite good for Bulgaria in general.
Speaking of which, when will butterflies and the like of all this start to reach the Middle East?
They will first start to reach them very soon, with the Hatay issue and French plans to change the status of Syria bringing friction with Turkey
Was trying to think of other places that might be affected. The US is probably safe from major butterflies for a few more years. I assume FDR probably won't run for a third term in 1940, unless the international situation is significantly worse - and while we know there will be a major war, it seems more likely that if it's in Europe it'll be "Germany and European friends versus the Soviets" than anything in the west. As for a Pacific War? I'm assuming the Japanese have already gone in and created "Manchukuo" on schedule, which makes a Second Sino-Japanese War likely at some stage. The question will be if Japan wants to do anything else at that point. Then again, if the situation in france deteriorates sufficiently far, Japan certainly has options...
And would the changes in Europe affect Latin America at all?
And would the changes in Europe affect Latin America at all?
On that note, what could be interesting could be the Blue Shirts Society getting more influence in the KMT than they did IOTL, now you mentioned it.
France won't collapse to instability anytime soon, if at all, and certainly not before the Japanese shoot themselves in the proverbial foot.
Latin America is a tricky one. I originally wanted to have Argentina be one of the nations to pursue investment from Germany and thereby prevent the deal which turned them into a borderline British puppet, but that just wouldn't have been realistic. I will have to do more research once we reach events which will have more global ripples
That's a good idea, I think. What Argentina needed urgently at this point was not so much investment (which of course wouldn't have been turned down, it just wasn't the primary need) insomuch as an export market. Exports to the British had made up the majority of Argentina's trade, and them turning to the Imperial Preference System royally fucked us over. Germany has very much the opposite problem: their lack of an empire deprives them of both markets for their goods and the availability of resources. That means that a free trade agreement would be very much natural, even if investment is not in the cards yet.
The problem I can see is timing, however. The treaty you mention, the Roca-Runciman Treaty, was signed in May 1933, and we are already past that ITTL. I guess that a willing Germany could still change the game, but from a legal point of view I'm not sure how binding the treaty was.
Brazil could look for it, Vargas was very much a opportunist and third wayism type of fellow and while this isn't exactly Hitler's Germany, he would very much love the ideal of having someone LB helping him modernize the country, especially given Vargas persecution of communists as well as the massive German population in southern Brazil who wouldn't be discriminated like otl and would support approachment with "the mother country "
The Italian population in Brazil is much larger than the German population.
As you mentioned, timing is a problem, and even positive trade relations wouldn't have wedged Argentina out of Britain's sphere fast enough to prevent that. What I'm looking towards instead now is the possibility of Argentina peeling themselves off of Britain, either with active German aid or not, by taking advantage of certain geopolitical shifts in the late 30's and early 40's which will keep Britain distracted and Germany more at the forefront.
The issue is that Brazil is a Latin-speaking, Catholic, modern Authoritarian nation, while Germany is pushing towards something which, on paper, is old-fashioned, at least in governance. I feel that Italy would be a more natural friend, especially since many of Italy's friends are also not conventionally fascist.
Another hot-button region I see is Venezuela, which is run by a military dictatorship, has enormous oil reserves, and which claims territory from its neighbours, notably the Dutch in the ABC Islands and British Guyana.
Aside from those, my knowledge of critical junctures and the influence of WW2 and its lead-ups IRL in the region is sadly lacking. The only other major factor I know in the region is the United Fruit Company, which, while undoubtedly affected by changes in the global market brought about by war, also wouldn't be massively different without some major divergences.
Violently taking it out of Britain's sphere is impossible, true. They own railways, frigorifics, all in all the critical infrastructure for exports. But the Germans offering a better deal for exports should still cause some competition in the area, which would benefit Argentina in the long run. Already the fact that there's another option should be helpful.