AHC: Gothic Egypt
- Thread starter Ultima Ratio
- Start date
Ostrogoths are better positioned to do so (I'm taking inspiration from the Vandals in Africa of course), but if you can make Visigoths or some other tribe do it, I'm okay with that
I honestly haven't really noticed. The idea came from a Vandal thread I found while searching for something. I chose the Goths and Egypt because I was looking for the creation of a Germanic state in North Africa. I believe Egypt is the better candidate for a lasting state. First of all, it is extremely prosperous, already has a large enough Greek population which has shown to do wonders in civilizing invading barbarians to an extent. Egypt is also far enough from the powerbases of large European powers, and the Ostrogoths are the strongest and most well-positioned to take it.
The problem is of course holding to it. I would assume that the Goths might get influenced by the local Greek-Latin culture, including local institutions and might be form a stable state.
Then there's of course the Arab invasions, which would likely come one way or another, but if Gothic Egypt is stable enough, they might have a good chance to push them back. It might also become a haven for Greek and Latin population fleeing the Levant, should it fall to the Arabs ITTL as well.
The Arab invasions may well be inevitable (to such an extent that anything in alternate history is inevitable) but Islam is not. Without that unifying religion and ideology, would the Arab invasions be significantly different than, say, the Germanic invasions in the WRE?
Goths taking Egypt doesn't seem impossible to me, the trick is getting them there without having them stop in Anatolia or whatever. This will require a strong ish navy and a weak Roman navy, which probably means bad things for Constantinople's longevity especially adding the loss of Egypt as well. Interesting to note that the loss of the African provinces is what ultimately spelled calamity and decline for both empires; the difference being that the Eastern Empire, through a fair bit of luck, managed to squeak through the danger period and eventually recover.
Goths taking Egypt doesn't seem impossible to me, the trick is getting them there without having them stop in Anatolia or whatever. This will require a strong ish navy and a weak Roman navy, which probably means bad things for Constantinople's longevity especially adding the loss of Egypt as well. Interesting to note that the loss of the African provinces is what ultimately spelled calamity and decline for both empires; the difference being that the Eastern Empire, through a fair bit of luck, managed to squeak through the danger period and eventually recover.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Here's a (most likely) insane way to do it. Have say Valens defeats the Goths at Adrianople. Details are unimportant: the Gothic leadership is slain and there are thousands of imprisoned Goths. Instead of enslaving them or sending back beyond the Danube, Valens transports them (in chains) to be settled in Egypt to serve as soldiers-settlers to keep the native Egyptian population in check in addition to bolstering Roman defenses against raids by nomadic Arab tribes. The Goths soon recover their numbers, expand their demographic presence in Egypt and in the span of a century, serve as relatively loyal stewards of the Roman state until one day the Persians (or some other enemy) does enough damage that the now pseudo-Hellenized Goths rebel, perhaps in the pretense of installing a puppet Roman as Emperor. They secure their independence perhaps in alliance to the Persians or some other power and rule Egypt.
How does one define a Goth and how does one define continuity of Goth-ness?
Is being Gothic a result ethnic, tribal, biological, culturall, Ideological, religous, experience or is it a mixture of many different factors?
If the Goths somehow get poltical leadership over Egypt and they later assimilate into the indiginous Egyptian population, as in Iberia, are they still Goths of sorts? What if Goths get a position in Egypt similar to Turks in Anatolia, in which the majority takes on the language of the elite minority, are they still real Goths?
In that scenario how would the egypto-goths handle the arabo/islamic expansion?
The 1800s saw an explosion in Gothic novels, 2018 saw an explosion in Gothic threads.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Unlikely that there would even be an Islam in that case due to the POD being that far back and without a religion to unite the Arab tribes together, the Goths would hypothetically be able to withstand disorganized attacks.
Yes, well this Gothic Egypt would only be Gothic in name and perhaps language, but culturally Romano-Greek. At best they might stay Gothic as much as Crimean Goths did.
I think that is ASB, Egypt is way too sunny and that sort of Goth is averse to sunlight I'm afraid.
To take this thinking a bit further. Assuming this new Egypt consolidated, and weathered the storm of the Arabs, could they potentially control trade in the whole Med and maybe open a route to India?
See, this seems a vastly more plausible approach than most, as the Goths were literally the other side of the world from Egypt.
1) The Crimean Goths aren't Goths? I'm sure they'd have been surprised since they were the ones who stayed put when the Visigoths and Ostrogoths went west.
2) That assumes we have the Arabs - or even some of the issues in the West. There are huge butterflies - from a possibility of not needing Justinians Restoration.
But assuming they do come to dominate the province (I find that unlikely, it seems more likely they'd be one of a few significant demographic groups in Egypt - Goths, Greeks, Egyptians, Arabs, Berbers?) but assuming they are the major group that supply manpower. If they dominate the trade routes (I would expect that more of the Greeks and Arabs, rather than Goths), I could see them setting themselves up in negotiated fortified trade posts - in fact, that sort of self-imposed isolation/seperation would likely characterise them.
What IS interesting however, is that if they maintain their Arian Faith (unlikely, but a cool option), is that the Arians control Alexandria!
The Goths might've taken Egypt as early as c 269 CE, if their big fleet had somehow evaded the Classis Syriaca. I assume their goal then, as at other times, was just plunder, but the fleet did seem awful big....Of course, even had they evaded Probus and taken Egypt, Aurelian probably would've cleaned them out.
Geiseric might've taken Egypt when the Huns were giving the eastern empire a hard time c 447 CE. The problem was, occupying it would've required so many of his men, he'd risk losing Carthago too in the end. It was easier to just raid.
Geiseric might've taken Egypt when the Huns were giving the eastern empire a hard time c 447 CE. The problem was, occupying it would've required so many of his men, he'd risk losing Carthago too in the end. It was easier to just raid.
Alaric gets his navy in 410, takes Africa like he wanted.
Then attacks east via Cyrenaica to Egypt.
Then attacks east via Cyrenaica to Egypt.
The Gothic rulers of Egypt used many ancient symbol, including Pagan ones related to mummification and the afterlife, in order to legitimise their rule. Hence, in the modern parlance, "Gothic" has come to mean gloomy and morbid.
Well, admittedly, I know very little of Crimean Goths. What I meant - about which I might be wrong - is that while Crimean Goths were indeed Gothic in language and name, their culture was more Byzantine Greek than anything else.
I'm pretty sure that was a later development, as they were subsumed into the Byzantine sphere.