AHC: Single national identity in the British Isles

But those, in turn, were largely due to religious differences.



Doesn't make it untrue, though. What percentage of Irishmen speak English as their first language? 95%? 99%?
Might speak English as our language was suppressed for centuries but doesn't mean our cultural identity is the same as England. Trying to say Irish culture is the same as English because we were forced into speaking the same language is quite offensive and shows you do not understand Irish people and our culture
 
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Might speak English as our language was suppressed for centuries but doesn't mean our cultural identity is the same as England. Trying to say Irish culture is the same as English because we were forced into speaking the same language is quite offensive and shows you do not understand Irish people and our culture
Pretty much, I love my English Sister in Law, but there's no question there's cultural gaps between us. Not a bad thing, just different.
 
It seems to me that the issue of cultural and national identity is very extensive, since I studied and analyzed this issue with the help of a useful resource and came to the conclusion that today it is difficult to say with certainty who belongs to which culture, since if you dig deep into the centuries to the source and to our ancestors , it may turn out that you are generally a native European and ended up in America after its discovery and resettlement
 
So what I am getting is pretty much any PoD after 1066 wouldn't work due to the sheer cultural differences that were brought in by the Normans, and assimilated in large part by the anglo-saxons. This kinda reinforced the already existing divide between the gaelic/brythonic celts and the germanic anglo-saxons.

My question is how far do we need to go? If this is mostly just a case of political priorities of the aristocracy, with Norman England being too outward-looking, then a surviving saxon state might be better suited for assimilating the disparate polities into a single british identity.
They were certainly more willing to work with different cultures, especially in the aftermath of the danelaw. And we can see that they willing to hire Nordic warrior bands, and even tried to rally their Brythonic populace around a shared Christian identity. They were willing to respect the administrative traditions of the different communities, which went a long way in promoting stability.

Of course all this came at the cost of reduced central authority, if we compare to the continental dukes and kings, but it might just be feasible. Overtime, with gradual conquest and assimilation you might see a Britannic identity emerge as an extension of their common Christian one, perhaps in opposition to the Frankish, German or Nordic attempts to meddle in the affairs of the islands.

I think the easiest way would definitely be to have a post-roman, Arthurian kingdom to somehow conquer and hold the island against armed immigrants, maybe as sort of a high king over the lesser kings of the different tribes.
 
The Union of England and Scotland was largely political - and there was very little in the way of any attempt to suppress Scots institutions - hence today Scotland has significant differences from England (particularly in its legal and education system for example).

To get cultural assimilation you need an earlier merger of England, Wales and Scotland and preferably a peaceful one. Ireland is a completely separate matter - and one we could all probably argue about for about as long as the differences have existed.

For England and Scotland a marriage between the future Edward II and Margaret the maid of Norway might have been early enough to allow both countries political and cultural development to move in tandem if their descendants lived and continued to rule both realms. There are some possibilities during the Civil War between Mathilda and Stephen for David I to end up with much of Northern England and perhaps in time the English crown.

Certainly in pre-feudal times the differences were not that great and the Irish were invading Wales and Scotland long before the English started invading their neighbours.

The reality is that in terms of the British Isles once what we know England united it was bound to turn to its neighbours for expansion - they were a) much smaller b) offered shelter to rebels and foreign powers keen to attack and c) just because "I am a great King" and i want to be even greater!
 
So what I am getting is pretty much any PoD after 1066 wouldn't work due to the sheer cultural differences that were brought in by the Normans, and assimilated in large part by the anglo-saxons. This kinda reinforced the already existing divide between the gaelic/brythonic celts and the germanic anglo-saxons.
That seems a bit too much for me. A thousand years is a long time. A long, long time. And we see in other parts of the world, or even just Europe, cultural changes that were as large or larger over the same period of time. It's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that you could come up with a 1066 PoD that leads to Ireland getting integrated into England at a very early date and thoroughly Anglicized before the modern era. It might not be likely, or it might be difficult, but it's not unimaginable. You have an awful lot of time to work with.
 
Originally substantial parts of Lowland Scotland up to the Firth of Forth were part of Bernicia/Northumbria. Keep it that way and let Northumbria conquer Strathclyde on top and Scotland would be much smaller and far less populated than IOTL, thus more comparable to Britanny.
What is the latest POD possible to have a British Isles united with a single identity without any separate "home nations"? It's fine for historical identities to have one day existed, but they should be no more apparent than Geat vs Swede, or Breton vs Aquitainian vs French.
Both in Sweden and in France there are ethnic groups, who don't self identify as standard French, primarily the Bretons, the Basques and the Corse, or standard Swedish, the Sami people.
 
That seems a bit too much for me. A thousand years is a long time. A long, long time. And we see in other parts of the world, or even just Europe, cultural changes that were as large or larger over the same period of time. It's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that you could come up with a 1066 PoD that leads to Ireland getting integrated into England at a very early date and thoroughly Anglicized before the modern era. It might not be likely, or it might be difficult, but it's not unimaginable. You have an awful lot of time to work with.
I agree it might not an unimaginable possibility, but you'd need rather a lot of imagination and really, really deep data to be able to justice to such a scenario. I merely offer what I feel is the path of lesser resistance, at the latest possible date where it's feasible.
 
Both in Sweden and in France there are ethnic groups, who don't self identify as standard French, primarily the Bretons, the Basques and the Corse, or standard Swedish, the Sami people.
You go to Brittany and ask most people what their national identity is, they would say French.
 
Butterflying away the Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain would be a good first step. That leaves the ethnic picture much simpler; one simply has Celts in some areas and romanized Celts in others.
 
Might speak English as our language was suppressed for centuries but doesn't mean our cultural identity is the same as England. Trying to say Irish culture is the same as English because we were forced into speaking the same language is quite offensive and shows you do not understand Irish people and our culture
The cultural identity is certainly different, but I'm not sure the actual culture is. The food and drink is highly similar, the traditional music is similar and the ways people live their lives - once you account for the fact Ireland is a more rural place - are pretty similar. Certainly they are more similar than they are to say, French or Swedish or Greek culture, let along compared to places further afield.
 
Butterflying away the Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain would be a good first step. That leaves the ethnic picture much simpler; one simply has Celts in some areas and romanized Celts in others.
The idea of a common Celticness is a Victorian idea arising out of linguistics not a common ethnicity. The ancient Britons did not see themselves as brothers to the Gaels or the Picts. I recall there was considered some commonality with the Gauls though so you might get agreement as that as being Celtic but then Celt was a GrecoRoman word so it might just come to mean Romanised Gaul or Briton and thus even further from commonality with the Gaels.

[Grammar edits]
 
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The idea of a common Celticness is a Victorian idea arising out of linguistics not a common ethnicity. The ancient Britons did not see themselves as brothers to the Gaels or the Picts. I recall there was considered some commonality with the Gauls though so you might get agreement as as being Celtic but then Celt was a GrecoRoman word so it might just come to mean Romanises Gaul or Briton and thus even further from commonality with the Gaels.
Caesar, IIRC, said that the southern Britons were similar to the northern Gauls, and there were some British tribes with the same name as Gallic tribes (e.g., you get Parisii in modern East Yorkshire and the Seine valley -- the latter group, of course, giving their name to Paris), which might suggest some cross-migration. But it's not clear that the actual Gauls or Britons thought of themselves as the same, or even similar, people, and since Gaul was Romanised to a much greater degree than Britain such similarities would tend to become less over time.
 
Caesar, IIRC, said that the southern Britons were similar to the northern Gauls, and there were some British tribes with the same name as Gallic tribes (e.g., you get Parisii in modern East Yorkshire and the Seine valley -- the latter group, of course, giving their name to Paris), which might suggest some cross-migration. But it's not clear that the actual Gauls or Britons thought of themselves as the same, or even similar, people, and since Gaul was Romanised to a much greater degree than Britain such similarities would tend to become less over time.
I can agree with that.
 
Giving full rights to the Irish with the Act of Union probably goes a good way towards formation of a British identity.
Given that catholic emancipation a full century before WW1 didn't do it, why would the act of union do it? Too many people think that national feeling is only about some objective measurement of how well people treat each other when in fact it's far more than that.

The English could have treated the Irish as bad as possible for even longer but if they did centuries earlier and without any lasting modern linguistic or religious divisions nobody would today actually care, like nobody uses the 30 years war in Germany as an argument for religious division or like nobody tries to paint the French annexation of Britany in the 15-16th century as some nefarious plot by the French.
 
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Given that catholic emancipation a full century before WW1 didn't do it, why would the act of union do it? Too many people think that national feeling is only about some objective measurement of how well people treat each other when in fact it's far more than that.

Three reasons:

1. It ties the forming of the United Kingdom to a positive effect for the Irish from the get go.

2. It happens before the formation of romantic nationalism which is when a bunch of national identity mythology gets locked down.

3. It means the British parliament would not be as grossly negligent over the response to the Great Famine, which removes the biggest anti-British narrative from the picture
 
Caesar, IIRC, said that the southern Britons were similar to the northern Gauls, and there were some British tribes with the same name as Gallic tribes (e.g., you get Parisii in modern East Yorkshire and the Seine valley -- the latter group, of course, giving their name to Paris), which might suggest some cross-migration. But it's not clear that the actual Gauls or Britons thought of themselves as the same, or even similar, people, and since Gaul was Romanised to a much greater degree than Britain such similarities would tend to become less over time.
With the butterflying-away of the Anglo-Saxon invasion, Romanization in Britain can continue and, later, spread to Ireland as well, assuming that a state based in southeastern Britain remains the regional hegemon, which seems likely for demographic reasons. That doesn't mean that the eventual Romance peoples of the British Isles won't, over time, come to see themselves as separate nations, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.
 
Given that Ireland is pretty thoroughly Anglicised anyway, I think Ireland is probably one of the easier cases. Remove the religious differences, either by keeping England Catholic or turning Ireland Anglican, and you'd remove the source of most post-16th-century conflict between the two nations.
NO. I reland is the hardest part to make a part of the British isles as one nation.
Ireland only becomes a majority English speaking country after the famine of the 1840s.
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Anglican faith was a minority in the south and north of Ireland. less than 10%.
In Northern Ireland, the biggest faith was the Presbyterians church.
The problem in Ireland was not religious. The problem in Ireland was the ownership of land.
 
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