Well, it was my attempt at a "progressive" (though almost as dangerous) fascism, one that was distinct to the usual "socialism but racist" red-browns.
Alternate Ideologies
- Thread starter Višeslav
- Start date
Check out Pirate Utopia, it's an excellent novella where Futurism thrives and Fascism dies on the vine. Without the reactionary creep of OTL Futurism remains a progressive ideology, funneling guns to all and sundry without discrimination (except for Yugoslav patriots and communists) to aid in their struggles of national liberation, opposing the capitalist class and empowering women to seize the glorious future.
Sounds awesome
But by the title, does it actually involves pirates?
And you did a good job! Of course, a leftist ideology calling itself "fascist" is probably the epitome of bad optics.
Pirates armed with speed boats and torpedos raiding the Adriatic and the twin ramshackle jokes of Italy and Yugoslavia!
Here's the description:
"Who are these bold rebels pillaging their European neighbors in the name of revolution? The Futurists! Utopian pirate warriors of the diminutive Regency of Carnaro, scourge of the Adriatic Sea. Mortal enemies of communists, capitalists, and even fascists (to whom they are not entirely unsympathetic).
The ambitious Soldier-Citizens of Carnaro are led by a brilliant and passionate coterie of the perhaps insane. Lorenzo Secondari, World War I veteran, engineering genius, and leader of Croatian raiders. Frau Piffer, Syndicalist manufacturer of torpedos at a factory run by and for women. The Ace of Hearts, a dashing Milanese aristocrat, spymaster, and tactical savant. And the Prophet, a seductive warrior-poet who leads via free love and military ruthlessness.
Fresh off of a worldwide demonstration of their might, can the Futurists engage the aid of sinister American traitors and establish global domination?"
It's written by Bruce Sterling! Fair warning, it ends pretty abruptly but that's intentional to make a point about the appeal of the fascist call to action.
"Who are these bold rebels pillaging their European neighbors in the name of revolution? The Futurists! Utopian pirate warriors of the diminutive Regency of Carnaro, scourge of the Adriatic Sea. Mortal enemies of communists, capitalists, and even fascists (to whom they are not entirely unsympathetic).
The ambitious Soldier-Citizens of Carnaro are led by a brilliant and passionate coterie of the perhaps insane. Lorenzo Secondari, World War I veteran, engineering genius, and leader of Croatian raiders. Frau Piffer, Syndicalist manufacturer of torpedos at a factory run by and for women. The Ace of Hearts, a dashing Milanese aristocrat, spymaster, and tactical savant. And the Prophet, a seductive warrior-poet who leads via free love and military ruthlessness.
Fresh off of a worldwide demonstration of their might, can the Futurists engage the aid of sinister American traitors and establish global domination?"
It's written by Bruce Sterling! Fair warning, it ends pretty abruptly but that's intentional to make a point about the appeal of the fascist call to action.
Last edited:
Yeah, which is why that ideology wasn't very important until it was discovered by Hindutva thinkers centuries later and rejiggered into Posthuman Life.
When Emily Mendez says "fascist", she's doing this thing where she's trying to be edgy and shocking to get people who are edgy to be interested in her beliefs. She wants people to say "You can't really be a fascist", and then to read the work and be surprised that she's actually making sense. She also isn't writing for a mass audience. She's writing for bitter, angry leftists who feel betrayed by a communist government that was "too nice".
Thanks for these first ideas.
The term yeoman is interesting, but I can't see it being used in the 17th century by the Helvetians, the word being of English origin. But it would be interesting later on if an English movement took it up with this name. In any case, this ideology will be less unified and hegemonic than Marxism in our reality.
As for the "Roman vibrations", I think they'll be quite subtle at first, before why not emerging in a way analogous to the romanticism of our reality.
I hadn't thought of the term "canton" and "cantonalism". It's an excellent idea, given that the starting point is Switzerland.
I like the word Bauerntum, given that the movement originated in the German-speaking part of Switzerland and has many echoes in the HRE.
Even if militarism and conscription are not the main themes, I like the term Wehrpflicht.
There's nothing special in conscription in itself however, except if you extoll - or even outright fetishise - it as either an ideal/ideology or myth/legend.
Also - the Bauerntum ideology can also emphasise the independence of such a peasant's polity by making a distinction between its -tum self and the Reich, and then by thoroughly disavowing the idea of submitting to the latter.
Last edited:
Shelleyism
Percy Bysshe Shelley instead of dying prematurely of drowning in 1822 at the young age of 29 lives til 1862 til the ripe age of 70.
Importantly, and most immediately post divergence in this TL he finishes and publishes his what can only be described as a manifesto in 1825: A Philosophical View of Reform
In OTL this work would be published posthumously in 1920. However even in its draft form can be seen a very developed socialist view of the labour theory of value and economic class, e.g. "For fourteen hours’ labour, which they do perforce, they receive—no matter in what nominal amount—the price of seven. They eat less bread, wear worse clothes, are more ignorant, immoral, miserable and desperate. This then is the condition of the lowest and largest class, from whose labour the whole materials of life are wrought, of which the others are only the receivers or the consumers.
Also despite his philosophical and poetic prowess he maintains a remarkably realistic outlook on progress, advocating gradual reform, yet he also does not rule out insurrection: "The last resort of resistance is undoubtedly insurrection. The right of insurrection is derived from the employment of armed force to counteract the will of the nation."
His views of organising are also lucid: "The true patriot will endeavour to enlighten and to unite the nation and animate it with enthusiasm and confidence. For this purpose he will be indefatigable in promulgating political truth. He will endeavour to rally round one standard the divided friends of liberty, and make them forget the subordinate objects with regard to which they differ by appealing to that respecting which they are all agreed. He will promote such open confederation among men of principle and spirit as may tend to make their intentions and their efforts converge to a common centre. He will discourage all secret associations, which have a tendency, by making the nation’s will develop itself in a partial and premature manner, to cause tumult and confusion."
Shelley here shows a a remarkable similarity of course to Marx etc here in his views. Where he can influence far greater however is the spread of socialist thought, republicanism and writings in English far earlier. The currency of his beliefs of course could gain strength in both the rise of Chartism, creating a far more radical wing, as well as supporting and influencing early trade unionism such as the Tolpuddle Martyrs.
Whilst most famous for his poetry, his politics is to be seen in his poetry, most famously in The Masque of Anarchy but also in many other poems, such as A Song to the Men of England:
"The seed ye sow, another reaps;
The wealth ye find, another keeps;
The robes ye weave, another wears;
The arms ye forge, another bears.
Sow seed—but let no tyrant reap:
Find wealth—let no imposter heap:
Weave robes—let not the idle wear:
Forge arms—in your defence to bear."
Yet Shelley was also both the budding philosophical and scientific prodigy. In A Refutation of Deism Shelley in 1814 wrote: "The laws of motion and the properties of matter suffice to account for every phenomenon, or combination of phenomena exhibited in the Universe. That certain animals exist in certain climates, results from the consentaneity of their frames to the circumstances of their situation: let these circumstances be altered to a sufficient degree, and the elements of their composition, must exist in some new combination no less resulting than the former from those inevitable laws by which the Universe is governed."
Here Shelley, as he does elsewhere, nigh encompasses the later dialectical materialism of Marx and Engels in OTL. As such, Shelleyism can bring about an ideology roughly the same as today's Marxism with the twist of a few things. Firstly, it is born of an English speaker, meaning the production, distributing and absorption of radical socialism can commence earlier.
Secondly, Shelley being a poet imbues what a stodgy dry translations of Engels, and particularly Marx as the founding articles of scientific socialism with a far more poetic flourish. In his Notes to Queen Mab in 1816 Shelley wrote (the poem was illegally printed and widely distributed amongst Chartists IOTL): "There is no real wealth but the labour of man. Were the mountains of gold and the valleys of silver, the world would not be one grain of corn the richer; no one comfort would be added to the human race. In consequence of our consideration for the precious metals, one man is enabled to heap to himself luxuries at the expense of the necessaries of his neighbour; a system admirably fitted to produce all the varieties of disease and crime, which never fail to characterize the two extremes of opulence and penury."
I conclude that Shelley can imbue the wrath of OTL Marxism with the poetry and heart of the romantics whilst creating a scandal only Lord Byron could dream of.
Percy Bysshe Shelley instead of dying prematurely of drowning in 1822 at the young age of 29 lives til 1862 til the ripe age of 70.
Importantly, and most immediately post divergence in this TL he finishes and publishes his what can only be described as a manifesto in 1825: A Philosophical View of Reform
In OTL this work would be published posthumously in 1920. However even in its draft form can be seen a very developed socialist view of the labour theory of value and economic class, e.g. "For fourteen hours’ labour, which they do perforce, they receive—no matter in what nominal amount—the price of seven. They eat less bread, wear worse clothes, are more ignorant, immoral, miserable and desperate. This then is the condition of the lowest and largest class, from whose labour the whole materials of life are wrought, of which the others are only the receivers or the consumers.
Also despite his philosophical and poetic prowess he maintains a remarkably realistic outlook on progress, advocating gradual reform, yet he also does not rule out insurrection: "The last resort of resistance is undoubtedly insurrection. The right of insurrection is derived from the employment of armed force to counteract the will of the nation."
His views of organising are also lucid: "The true patriot will endeavour to enlighten and to unite the nation and animate it with enthusiasm and confidence. For this purpose he will be indefatigable in promulgating political truth. He will endeavour to rally round one standard the divided friends of liberty, and make them forget the subordinate objects with regard to which they differ by appealing to that respecting which they are all agreed. He will promote such open confederation among men of principle and spirit as may tend to make their intentions and their efforts converge to a common centre. He will discourage all secret associations, which have a tendency, by making the nation’s will develop itself in a partial and premature manner, to cause tumult and confusion."
Shelley here shows a a remarkable similarity of course to Marx etc here in his views. Where he can influence far greater however is the spread of socialist thought, republicanism and writings in English far earlier. The currency of his beliefs of course could gain strength in both the rise of Chartism, creating a far more radical wing, as well as supporting and influencing early trade unionism such as the Tolpuddle Martyrs.
Whilst most famous for his poetry, his politics is to be seen in his poetry, most famously in The Masque of Anarchy but also in many other poems, such as A Song to the Men of England:
"The seed ye sow, another reaps;
The wealth ye find, another keeps;
The robes ye weave, another wears;
The arms ye forge, another bears.
Sow seed—but let no tyrant reap:
Find wealth—let no imposter heap:
Weave robes—let not the idle wear:
Forge arms—in your defence to bear."
Yet Shelley was also both the budding philosophical and scientific prodigy. In A Refutation of Deism Shelley in 1814 wrote: "The laws of motion and the properties of matter suffice to account for every phenomenon, or combination of phenomena exhibited in the Universe. That certain animals exist in certain climates, results from the consentaneity of their frames to the circumstances of their situation: let these circumstances be altered to a sufficient degree, and the elements of their composition, must exist in some new combination no less resulting than the former from those inevitable laws by which the Universe is governed."
Here Shelley, as he does elsewhere, nigh encompasses the later dialectical materialism of Marx and Engels in OTL. As such, Shelleyism can bring about an ideology roughly the same as today's Marxism with the twist of a few things. Firstly, it is born of an English speaker, meaning the production, distributing and absorption of radical socialism can commence earlier.
Secondly, Shelley being a poet imbues what a stodgy dry translations of Engels, and particularly Marx as the founding articles of scientific socialism with a far more poetic flourish. In his Notes to Queen Mab in 1816 Shelley wrote (the poem was illegally printed and widely distributed amongst Chartists IOTL): "There is no real wealth but the labour of man. Were the mountains of gold and the valleys of silver, the world would not be one grain of corn the richer; no one comfort would be added to the human race. In consequence of our consideration for the precious metals, one man is enabled to heap to himself luxuries at the expense of the necessaries of his neighbour; a system admirably fitted to produce all the varieties of disease and crime, which never fail to characterize the two extremes of opulence and penury."
I conclude that Shelley can imbue the wrath of OTL Marxism with the poetry and heart of the romantics whilst creating a scandal only Lord Byron could dream of.
Assuming no butterflies affect his wife's literary career, the political cartoonists are going to love this.
A very interesting point! It will almost certainly have a different publication, limited runs in English and French occurred in OTL prior to Percy's death and the first major run of Mary's final edit happened in 1831. This was cut to be much less radical and is the version we're all familiar with. I have the sneaking suspicion this was done to provide a much needed income. However, the earlier version, as well as notes on the first draft held ironically at Oxford University (Percy was the first student ever expelled, for atheism, funnily enough) clearly depict the monster as a tragic metaphor for the working class.
I can imagine three outcomes. One, it still becomes a founding novel of science fiction. Two, it is reduced to an interesting bit of trivia. Or three, it becomes a well regarded and equally maligned work of early socialist literature. Regardless I can imagine the cartoon you invoke reading as: "A corpse is devouring Europe, the cadaver of communism!" a loyalist British political cartoon 1848...
At least I doubt a Shelley-descended socialism would have the obsession Marxism and especially Marxism-Leninism have historically had, of seeing bourgeois degeneracy everywhere; it'd be a far less authoritarian socialism, and I can see something not unlike the Arts & Crafts movement emerging from it.
I wouldn't be so sure. I think it would be less authoritarian but not necessarily less condemning of bourgeois degeneracy, so to say. Two examples, in A Philosophical Review of Reform:
"But in the habits and lives of this new aristocracy created out of an increase in public calamities, and whose existence must be determined by their termination, there is nothing to qualify our disapprobation. They eat and drink and sleep, and in the intervals of these things performed with most vexatious ceremony and accompaniments they cringe and lie.1 They poison the literature of the age in which they live by requiring either the antitype of their own mediocrity in books, or such stupid and distorted and inharmonious idealisms as alone have the power to stir their torpid imaginations. Their hopes and fears are of the narrowest description. Their domestic affections are feeble, and they have no others. They think of any commerce with their species but as a means, never as an end, and as a means to the basest forms of personal advantage."
And from his Notes on Queen Mab:
" I will not insult common sense by insisting on the doctrine of the natural equality of man. The question is not concerning its desirableness, but its practicability: so far as it is practicable, it is desirable. That state of human society which approaches nearer to an equal partition of its benefits and evils should, caeteris paribus, be preferred: but so long as we conceive that a wanton expenditure of human labour, not for the necessities, not even for the luxuries of the mass of society, but for the egotism and ostentation of a few of its members, is defensible on the ground of public justice, so long we neglect to approximate to the redemption of the human race.
Labour is required for physical, and Leisure for moral improvement: from the former of these advantages the rich, and from the latter the poor, by the inevitable conditions of their respective situations, are precluded. A state which should combine the advantages of both would be subjected to the evils of neither. He that is deficient in firm health, or vigorous intellect, is but half a mall: hence it follows that to subject the labouring classes to unnecessary labour is wantonly depriving them of any opportunities of intellectual improvement; and that the rich are heaping up for their own mischief the disease, lassitude, and ennui by which their existence is rendered an intolerable burthen.
English reformers exclaim against sinecures,--but the true pension list is the rent-roll of the landed proprietors: wealth is a power usurped by the few, to compel the many to labour for their benefit. The laws which support this system derive their force from the ignorance and credulity of its victims: they are the result of a conspiracy of the few against the many, who are themselves obliged to purchase this pre-eminence by the loss of all real comfort."
Shelley hated his own class with gusto, I believe his time at Eton and Oxford firmed this view.
I don't know much about the finer details of his life but, considering how much abuse and bullying went on in public schools back then, tolerated if not encouraged by the teachers themselves, that's not exactly surprising.
I also posted my own version of "progressive fascism" called Synthetism, although that takes more cues from Strasserism and is still antisemitic and fully believes in segregation (they do however take the "equal" part of "separate but equal" seriously though).
Crazy Boris
Banned
Concept I came up with last night
I don’t really have a name for it, but here it is
Basically, the very top top of the political ladder is a council of theologians and philosophers from a wide variety of religious and philosophical backgrounds, that look for the common traits in the ethics of their schools of thought to establish “universal morality”. Anyone who seeks a major public office or any position of authority has to be vetted by these guys before they can even be considered to make sure they have good moral standing and won’t use their position either to unjustly enrich themselves or to push bad stuff on the general populace.
I don’t really have a name for it, but here it is
Basically, the very top top of the political ladder is a council of theologians and philosophers from a wide variety of religious and philosophical backgrounds, that look for the common traits in the ethics of their schools of thought to establish “universal morality”. Anyone who seeks a major public office or any position of authority has to be vetted by these guys before they can even be considered to make sure they have good moral standing and won’t use their position either to unjustly enrich themselves or to push bad stuff on the general populace.