Best way to abort Christianity after Constantine?

[Hassungṙengjang]

If you weren’t following the other thread, the goal is to drive Christianity back to the margins of society and basically outside of the mainstream European religious conversation by 700 at the latest. This doesn’t just mean Nicene Christianity, but Christianity in general. No Gnostics, no Arians. No Montanists.

I’m partial toward Radagaisus being successful in taking Rome and this kicking off a sort of Pagan fundamentalist uprising that rips the Empire a part, but I also like the idea of a prolonged and bloody conflict between East and West over religious differences in which the East increasingly leans on Sassanid Iran.

This is not for a timeline, but for a book series. The book series is about an American boy who travels to this dimension (in a dream, on a mushroom trip, idk) and explores a world where Abrahamism at large is generally irrelevant, even if it still exists.

So? How would you do it? I’m open to whatever ideas as this is in its earliest stages of development. And considering that we live in a world where I can have this discussion through a handheld computer in the remote mountains of rural Tuscany where the British conquered India, I don’t think there are many ideas that are that absurd. So, play nice…

 

[AkhenatenOrRamses]

Having Julian the Apostate avoid death during his Persian Campaign might do the trick. He was the last pagan emperor and Christianity had no real opposition within the imperial bureaucracy after him. If he lives longer than he might be able to better carry out his goals of knocking down the religion of the relatives that killed his father and brother a peg.

Alternatively you could have Aurelian live longer and establish worship of Sol Invictus as the new "it" religion in the Roman Empire.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Christianity had withstood centuries of persecution by that point, and still managed to grow to millions of adherents by the death of Constantine I

Christianity becoming the dominant religion of Rome was definitely not inevitable by this point, but it was probably too late to force it into total irrelevancy

Does the OP consider it to be OK for Christianity to be considered a "non-European" religion for the purposes of the scenario? Maybe if the Parthians or the Sassanids conquer Syria, Palestine, Egypt and potentially even Anatolia, the religion largely spreads eastwards, and becomes strongly associated with the Persian/Arabian cultural region instead

 

[Hassungṙengjang]

Christianity had withstood centuries of persecution by that point, and still managed to grow to millions of adherents by the death of Constantine I

Christianity becoming the dominant religion of Rome was definitely not inevitable by this point, but it was probably too late to force it into total irrelevancy

Does the OP consider it to be OK for Christianity to be considered a "non-European" religion for the purposes of the scenario? Maybe if the Parthians or the Sassanids conquer Syria, Palestine, Egypt and potentially even Anatolia, the religion largely spreads eastwards, and becomes strongly associated with the Persian/Arabian cultural region instead

I can be addressed directly, you know 😂

I said by 700 at the latest. That gives us nearly 400 years to work with. A lot can happen in that kind of time, so I don’t think it’s too tall an order.

And yes, I’m open to it taking over Iran and elsewhere. Whatever form it takes there however I want to be very different from what we ended up with.

 

[Rhymehouse]

Julian the Apostate is your best bet. If he doesn't die and enacts major steps to suppress the religion, that could end its momentum and lead to it being far less popular in Europe. Of course, even if Christianity dies in Rome, it still existed in Iran, Ethiopia, Armenia, and a few other places.

 

[Hassungṙengjang]

Julian the Apostate is your best bet. If he doesn't die and enacts major steps to suppress the religion, that could end its momentum and lead to it being far less popular in Europe. Of course, even if Christianity dies in Rome, it still existed in Iran, Ethiopia, Armenia, and a few other places.

It is the *easiest, but is it the best? 😂

 

[Pauh the federalist]

Have the dark ages for europe be much more distopian to the point its essentially a second bronze age colapse.

Late Bronze Age collapse - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Whiteshore]

Julian the Apostate is your best bet. If he doesn't die and enacts major steps to suppress the religion, that could end its momentum and lead to it being far less popular in Europe. Of course, even if Christianity dies in Rome, it still existed in Iran, Ethiopia, Armenia, and a few other places.

Maybe have Julian rolling all 20s be combined with Rome still falling as per OTL similar to how it was a one-two combo of a Hindu revival which produced the modern faith we know today and waves of Muslim invasions which broke the back of Buddhist institutions (as the Muslims burnt a lot of monasteries, most notably Nalanda) which led to the near-extinction of Buddhism in India? At the very least, the downfall of Indian Buddhism could be instructive in providing possible inspiration for brainstorming a similar fall of European Christianity.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Julian+Attila might do the trick. Julian the Apostate is more successful in his campaign to counter Christianity. When Julian dies TTL, perhaps Rome can still remain Christian for some time, but these Christian emperors are weaker and unable to take drastic moves against paganism as, say, Theodosius did OTL. So you get a nominally Christian state that starts suffering worse and worse calamities. The worst of these would be a more successful Attila who completely destroys the Roman Empire and forms a stable empire of his own from Gaul to the Carpathians based on his legitimacy as the conquerer of Rome. Essentially it's similar to the Frankish Empire in that it is a large Germanic empire knitted together from subject tribes ruling under the aegis of a semi-divine king, but minus the Christianity (this is the logical trajectory of the Hunnic Empire had it not imploded in its first civil war).

The remaining Roman Empire collapses under waves of migration from the tribes opposed to Attila, outside of bits of the eastern empire which is overwhelmed by the Sassanids. Christianity does not persist in any of these areas either, for it either blends back into Judaism (Egypt and the Levant), blends with local cultures to form new monotheist cults no one would ever call Christian (North Africa, Arabia), or totally vanishes in favour of various forms of Neoplatonicism or other pagan religions which have taken new form in response to the turmoils that befell their own cults in Late Antiquity. Gnosticism blends into Manichaeism, which maybe like OTL can be destroyed or subsumed into Buddhism (as it was in China).

 

[GoldenEye]

or totally vanishes in favour of various forms of Neoplatonicism or other pagan religions which have taken new form in response to the turmoils

IIRC, one of Julian's project was the reorganization of the Roman religion into something that could compete with Christianity.

TBH I think that in order to really destroy Christianity, such a project would have to be a massive success. You'd need some kind of universalist faith that could beat Christianity at its own game.

It would be interesting scenario to imagine. It's a bit wild, but I kind of imagine a religion that's essentially Hellenic hinduism. A neoplatonic faith where each god is an emanation of the One or the 'Form of Good' syncretizing traditional paganism with an overarching monotheistic system that frames them in place.

 

[Whiteshore]

IIRC, one of Julian's project was the reorganization of the Roman religion into something that could compete with Christianity.

TBH I think that in order to really destroy Christianity, such a project would have to be a massive success. You'd need some kind of universalist faith that could beat Christianity at its own game.

It would be interesting scenario to imagine. It's a bit wild, but I kind of imagine a religion that's essentially Hellenic hinduism. A neoplatonic faith where each god is an emanation of the One or the 'Form of Good' syncretizing traditional paganism with an overarching monotheistic system that frames them in place.

And even with the Hindu revival, Buddhism was only extirpated from the Indian subcontinent outside of a few pockets (and Sri Lanka) with the Muslim invasions and the destruction of Buddhist institutions it caused, so barbarian invasions would be necessary for stamping out Christianity entirely even if Julian or a similar figure succeeded. Even then, Buddhism continues to thrive in the Sinosphere and Mainland Southeast Asia, though the OP seems to have taken this into account by allowing for this TL to still have a Christian, if heretical to the Chalcedonian "mainstream", Iran or Ethiopia to be a thing.

 

[DJ03]

by this point there were christian communities all over the empire so, while you can definitely reduce it back to a minority and exclude it from power, i don't think you can wipe it out entirely, nor i think that is necessary for the purpose of keeping a pagan roman empire

 

[Hassungṙengjang]

Julian+Attila might do the trick. Julian the Apostate is more successful in his campaign to counter Christianity. When Julian dies TTL, perhaps Rome can still remain Christian for some time, but these Christian emperors are weaker and unable to take drastic moves against paganism as, say, Theodosius did OTL. So you get a nominally Christian state that starts suffering worse and worse calamities. The worst of these would be a more successful Attila who completely destroys the Roman Empire and forms a stable empire of his own from Gaul to the Carpathians based on his legitimacy as the conquerer of Rome. Essentially it's similar to the Frankish Empire in that it is a large Germanic empire knitted together from subject tribes ruling under the aegis of a semi-divine king, but minus the Christianity (this is the logical trajectory of the Hunnic Empire had it not imploded in its first civil war).

The remaining Roman Empire collapses under waves of migration from the tribes opposed to Attila, outside of bits of the eastern empire which is overwhelmed by the Sassanids. Christianity does not persist in any of these areas either, for it either blends back into Judaism (Egypt and the Levant), blends with local cultures to form new monotheist cults no one would ever call Christian (North Africa, Arabia), or totally vanishes in favour of various forms of Neoplatonicism or other pagan religions which have taken new form in response to the turmoils that befell their own cults in Late Antiquity. Gnosticism blends into Manichaeism, which maybe like OTL can be destroyed or subsumed into Buddhism (as it was in China).

Buongiorno! Maybe Julian + Radagaisus + Attila? Obviously, it wouldn’t be the actual Radagaisus and Attila because they might not even be born ITTL, and our pseudo-Radagaisus would be focused on Constantinople rather than Rome.

I should also state that I’m thinking about turning this into an interactive game here on this forum. The goal would be to make it all the way to 2012. I would have to think about the rules, though. I’m positive I don’t want technology to reach a point past the late 19th century.

 

[Whiteshore]

Buongiorno! Maybe Julian + Radagaisus + Attila? Obviously, it wouldn’t be the actual Radagaisus and Attila because they might not even be born ITTL, and our pseudo-Radagaisus would be focused on Constantinople rather than Rome.

I should also state that I’m thinking about turning this into an interactive game here on this forum. The goal would be to make it all the way to 2012. I would have to think about the rules, though. I’m positive I don’t want technology to reach a point past the late 19th century.

And yeah, is my comparison to Indian Buddhism (with Constantine the European Ashoka in this comparison) and how a Hindu revival+a wave of Muslim invasions eliminating its main institutions led to its near-extinction in India (outside of Sri Lanka, parts of the Himalayas where Tibetan influence was relatively strong, and the Chittagong Hill Tracts) accurate?

 

[CEL]

in which the East increasingly leans on Sassanid Iran.

How about the Pagan West allies with Persia in against the Christian East. Greater animosity results in intensified persecution of Christians in the West and Persia, due to suspicions of them being Eastern Roman agents and Christianity in general becoming increasingly associated with the Eastern Roman sphere of influence. This cold war culminates in something akin to OTL's Byzantine-Sassanian War of 602-628, which ends with the collapse of the Eastern Roman Empire. Many of its allies (e.g. Armenia & Ethiopia) either follow suit or are forced to abandon Christianity in the following decades.

 

[Whiteshore]

East increasingly leans on Sassanid Iran

On that note, it could set up a situation akin to how Buddhism remained fairly strong in China and Southeast Asia, with Iran and regions further east (along with Ethiopia) being Christian in a divergent manner, even as it died out in its homeland of India to a double-whammy of a Hindu revival sucking away patronage it relied on and invasions by both Huns and Muslims burning down the great Buddhist institutions of India. (As you can tell, the idea of a pagan Europe, Christian Asia is something I find interesting, especially with Merovingian's Christian Persia TL)

 

[Hassungṙengjang]

And yeah, is my comparison to Indian Buddhism (with Constantine the European Ashoka in this comparison) and how a Hindu revival+a wave of Muslim invasions eliminating its main institutions led to its near-extinction in India (outside of Sri Lanka, parts of the Himalayas where Tibetan influence was relatively strong, and the Chittagong Hill Tracts) accurate?

Seemingly, yes.

 

[Hassungṙengjang]

How about the Pagan West allies with Persia in against the Christian East. Greater animosity results in intensified persecution of Christians in the West and Persia, due to suspicions of them being Eastern Roman agents and Christianity in general becoming increasingly associated with the Eastern Roman sphere of influence. This cold war culminates in something akin to OTL's Byzantine-Sassanian War of 602-628, which ends with the collapse of the Eastern Roman Empire. Many of its allies (e.g. Armenia & Ethiopia) either follow suit or are forced to abandon Christianity in the following decades.

This is a fun idea on the surface, but as a Pagan myself I consider Iran to be the spiritual center of what I call Magian religion, which spread to the West through Plato and subsequently gave birth to Judaism and Christianity. So, the Persians allying with the West to destroy the Roman East would be contrary to the interests of the God both serve.

 

[CEL]

This is a fun idea on the surface, but as a Pagan myself I consider Iran to be the spiritual center of what I call Magian religion, which spread to the West through Plato and subsequently gave birth to Judaism and Christianity. So, the Persians allying with the West to destroy the Roman East would be contrary to the interests of the God both serve.

Based on that reasoning, Julian also subscribed to this Magian religion since he followed Mithraism and Neoplatonism.

 

[Hassungṙengjang]

Based on that reasoning, Julian also subscribed to this Magian religion since he followed Mithraism and Neoplatonism.

Mithraism no, Neoplatonism though… yes. I don’t see the Huns and Germanic invaders adopting this religion right away, though. That’s a fair point, though. I guess I just see the Roman East and the Persians as having more in common at this point than either would with a West that is ruled by Huns and Germans.