Given a POD say after 1000 A.D could Lithuania be kept Pagan if not until modern day then at least a century more. Or At least keep some of the Peasantry Pagan
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Could Lithuania be kept Pagan?
- Thread starter Impossible_Quail_250
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No - simply because there are Christians around. And the adoption of one or another branch of Christianity is beneficial from the point of view of foreign policy. Catholicism provides a link with Poland and other potential allies against the German Order. While Orthodoxy is important for securing a position among the Russ Principalities.
OK, let's put it lighter. Can a forced conversion of the population be avoided, with only the rulers and some of the nobility converting?
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No - theoretically, the process can be slowed down, but still they will not reach our days. Considering also that such communities are much more pragmatic when it comes to faith.
I would argue it is not completely unrealistic to have a significant minority of Lithuania stay Pagan(although Abrahamic religion would influence culture greatly still.) But the state itself will likely convert one way or another.
Something of an interesting scenario might be Mongols ransacking Eastern Europe and imposing their hegemony on a much larger land for a much longer time, destroying the Political Enemies of Lithuania in the process. Later on, this can have the risk of Lithuania converting to Islam alongside its Mongol Overlords, however.
Something of an interesting scenario might be Mongols ransacking Eastern Europe and imposing their hegemony on a much larger land for a much longer time, destroying the Political Enemies of Lithuania in the process. Later on, this can have the risk of Lithuania converting to Islam alongside its Mongol Overlords, however.
In 1000 AD the Christians aren't as strong as they'd be even a century from then given there's still significant resistance in Scandinavia to Christianisation and the East Slavs were just Christianised barely a few decades before. If you wank both the pagans and the Muslims (maybe just the Iberians/North Africans), Christianity is less attractive and then the Mongols can destroy both the Islamic world and ideally the Christian states in Russia and Byzantium. This could set up a scenario where Lithuania is like OTL and perfectly poised to expand, but with less Christian East Slavs to rule over. And no doubt the Northern Crusades would be different ideally leading to greater Lithuanian success.
If you can either butterfly away or weaken the Crusades then the Baltic Crusades may either never happen or be significantly delayed and so Lithuania completes the unification of the Balts. Then they really need to retain their position in the aftermath of the Mongol invasions, and then they could rather easily retain paganism for a century longer without Teutonic pressure. The other states around the region, the Russian principalities and Poland, were generally more pragmatic towards the Lithuanian faith.
Just make your Lithuania the way Teuton propoganda described: as this vast and endless pagan empire that had Emperor of All Pagans and "Pope" of All Pagans!
Though if seriously, depending on the circumstances Lithuania most certainly could be kept pagan for longer. However it would be rather a side effect of some larger or greater shift, rather than a result of the actions of Lithuanians themselves. Others have mentioned examples like Mongol Empire pushing westwards more, perhaps if some states or statelets in Europe have a Timur sort of figure later on (Bodycount and mass murder included), that could similarly cripple any would be enemies for this pagan state. One could argue that a worse period of crisis in 14th century could also have enough of an effect. Though it is hard to imagine how exactly said crises could be made worse without similarly affecting the region in question.
Though if seriously, depending on the circumstances Lithuania most certainly could be kept pagan for longer. However it would be rather a side effect of some larger or greater shift, rather than a result of the actions of Lithuanians themselves. Others have mentioned examples like Mongol Empire pushing westwards more, perhaps if some states or statelets in Europe have a Timur sort of figure later on (Bodycount and mass murder included), that could similarly cripple any would be enemies for this pagan state. One could argue that a worse period of crisis in 14th century could also have enough of an effect. Though it is hard to imagine how exactly said crises could be made worse without similarly affecting the region in question.
That, in almost every part of the world, pre-axial age religions were displaced by axial age ones (the Abrahamics, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, etc), is telling I think.
Of what, I don't really know
Of what, I don't really know
Perhaps if Hercus Monte successfully liberated Prussia from rule of Teutonic Order Baltic paganism would thrive for much longer time. Maybe under influence of Christianity (Monte himself was ex-Christian) more organized version of Baltic paganism would eventually develop, with holy books and other stuff?
The only way that Paganism survives longer is if two things happen within a short amount of time of each other. First their needs to be a figure that people rally around that champions both Lithuanian Political and Religious organizations and likely blends them into a very distinct identity. Second an individual or a group needs to then capitalize on that identity and the momentum it creates to codify and organize the religion into written rules with a priesthood. Something that will establish a canon and hierarchy to distribute wealth. Basically borrow from Christianity and its centralized model, instead of each village having its religious figurehead and their own interpretation of the will of the gods. Provide the same type of benefits like trade links, cultural exchange, having a unified vision of what it is to be a Lithuanian Pagan.
You need a way their neighbors couldn't direct influence or try to conquer them, by 1000 might be too late but weaker Christianity always help
It's a bit more complicated. In the East we have more sycrenization while in the west what happened was more akin to a cultural revolution with older beliefs actively suppressed.
Dark is the Baltic tribes in 1200, next shade is expansion into Pomerania and Estonia along with Poland, then conquering lands of Mongol Rus Princes and Poland finally conquering Moldova and Black Sea coast. With no Northern Crusade a unified Lithuania can conquer the Baltic and this will prevent the chain of events that led to an alliance between Poland and Lithuania so Lithuania can also conquer Poland aswell.
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Empty America had the whole "Mongols conquer Europe up to France and so pagan Lithuania survives under their suzerainty" thing, and when the Nestorian Sartaq becomes great khan, he drafts the pagan Lithuanians for a crusade:
Part 35 - Desolation Angels (Part II)
Empty America
Empty America Written by Doug Hoff circa 2003. Reposted with permission. (Hop, Vinland, circa 1010 a.d.) Thorfinn Karlsefni took a good look around. Not a bad settlement, all things considered. Sod houses (including one serviceable bathhouse) coming along nicely. And they found the vines...
www.alternatehistory.com
Part 35 - Desolation Angels (Part II)
For centuries the opposite was true, Lithuania being neither orthdodox nor catholic let them wiggle between these two powers and not take a definitive stance in any conflict.
With a PoD of 1000 all of this could change. The Teutonic Order may never come into being, Russia can be kept weak or religiously divided - it's hardly fully christian in 1000 AD, Poland is a state in infancy and by no means destined to be a necessary lithuanian ally.
Sooner or later they had to take sides.
The problem is that the history of the Lithuanian great power began after the Tatar-Mongol invasion, before that the Lithuanian tribes were vassals of the Principality of Polotsk. And protection from the crusades requires greater integration into the Christian world (which does not protect against banal contradictions with local feudal lords). In general, the best way to cancel the Christianization of someone is the abolition of Christianity - however, such a POD is very unstable, and it can easily turn out that there are no Balts or Slavs.
Why though? If Lithuania can play both sides while at the same time building it’s own power, to the point that they can withstand them without help from the other, then there’ll never be a true need to convert. It happened otl, but it’s deterministic to blanket state that they’ll just have to.
This does not happen - very rarely in history it happens that you can defeat everyone alone. Not to mention the fact that at least half of all feudal lords are already Christians. In addition, here a stumbling block of interests of the Jagiellonian family arises - if you conquer Eastern Russia, then you will have to accept Orthodoxy ( some members of the family have already been baptized) since the Russian princes see themselves as champions of Orthodox Christianity. If we build relations with Poland, then we must accept Catholicism. Be that as it may, there are still Christians around. Sooner or later you will have to join them. And it is better to lead the Christianization yourself than to wait for the next crusader.
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