Could the Axis powers neutralize allied strategic bombings?

[minhow]

One of reasons that the Axis powers were defeated in WW2 was the strategic bombing campaign made first by Britain and then by the US, that destroyed their war effort. In some cases they bombed cities without any real opposition.

Is it possible for the axis power fully neutralize allied strategic bombing campaigns in WW2? To the point of making strategic bombing a liability than a war winning strategy?

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

Perhaps if the Blitz never happened it could be delayed, though I think the western allies would still start strategic bombing eventually. The only ways to guarantee that it doesn't happen would be either not start the war or to surrender.

 

[Grey Wolf]

There is only 2 ways to do this

1) remove the industry to where the bombers cannot get it
2) down the bombers

Now, Nazi Germany worked on BOTH of these.

IMHO the only real potential for doing it better or faster would be to look at the 1939 ruling from Hitler not to advance technology that could not be immediately used in a war. It's possible that jet fighters, better radar, and rhine maiden type AA missiles would have been available in greater quantity and earlier without that

 

[mack8]

The technological answer is more/better day and night fighters, there are all kinds of technical discussions on that subject. And later in the war maybe jets and primitive SAMs. This mostly refering to Germany and by extension Italy.
Japan has to keep the americans as far as possible for as long as possible, which is at least temporarily possible if they avoid the 1942 naval debacles.
Once we get into 1945 and nukes though...

 

[The Wooksta!]

The Luftwaffe did have some success attacking bombers on take off and landing, but stopped when it was actually having some success. They did try the same tactic right at the end.

 

[Catspoke]

I suppose Germany could not invade the Soviet Union and divert the aircraft used, and 88 mm guns to city defense. Changing production priorities to different types of aircraft.
(1/2 the tanks not destroyed on the eastern front could be used to make export goods the Soviet Union needs in exchange for oil and grain)

Allied bomber offensive couldn't really get off the ground in 1943 under those circumstances, might take all of 1944 to grind down the Luftwaffe to allow a strategic campaign, which maybe allows the Germans to get a jet force and missile capability to at least fight back a little in 1945.

 

[dilbert113]

I suppose Germany could not invade the Soviet Union and divert the aircraft used, and 88 mm guns to city defense. Changing production priorities to different types of aircraft.
(1/2 the tanks not destroyed on the eastern front could be used to make export goods the Soviet Union needs in exchange for oil and grain)

Allied bomber offensive couldn't really get off the ground in 1943 under those circumstances, might take all of 1944 to grind down the Luftwaffe to allow a strategic campaign, which maybe allows the Germans to get a jet force and missile capability to at least fight back a little in 1945.

If Germany had not invaded the USSR, the only nation that would need to worry about defending itself from large-scale strategic bombing would be England. It would not have to worry indefinitely, though, as a war against a German empire throughout Western Europe engaged in a quasi-alliance with the USSR with a neutral USA would end in a defeat for England, and quite probably the invasion and occupation of England by the mid-1950's. I am not referring to the unmentionable, but rather what a victorious 4th Reich would do a decade or so after 1945, probably after Hitler and passed away and their was a new Fuhrer. Germany was winning the war until it invaded the USSR.

 

[Cymraeg]

There is only 2 ways to do this

1) remove the industry to where the bombers cannot get it
2) down the bombers

Now, Nazi Germany worked on BOTH of these.

IMHO the only real potential for doing it better or faster would be to look at the 1939 ruling from Hitler not to advance technology that could not be immediately used in a war. It's possible that jet fighters, better radar, and rhine maiden type AA missiles would have been available in greater quantity and earlier without that

*Baffled silence*
Germany had two industrial powerhouses, the Ruhr and Silesia. Both had good transport access, local natural resources, population, power, etc. The Ruhr's power needs were the main reason behind the Dambusters Raid, to take out a chunk of the region's hydroelectric power. I wasn't aware that the Germans ever made a concerted effort to move heavy industry from the Ruhr.

 

[EWHM]

The Axis needed way more fuel if they wanted to prevent large amounts of damage from strategic bombing. With more fuel they can train more pilots, build more planes and contest airspace more. Historically they were very short of fuel for such things. Normally defending over your own country will let you attrit your enemy's air forces to nothing over time because, well you get to recover a good fraction of your pilots that are shot down, and his pilots become POWs at best when shot down. But when you don't have the fuel you can get ground down over time.

 

[thaddeus]

there is a perennial thread on another forum on whether flak alone could fend off the Allies https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=68932

my view the Germans had more opportunities with AA flak defense than improving or enlarging their air force. no doubt there was opportunity to "bury" some industry during the 1930's buildup?

 

[Sekhmet_D]

It's possible that jet fighters, better radar, and rhine maiden type AA missiles would have been available in greater quantity and earlier without that

The technological answer is more/better day and night fighters, there are all kinds of technical discussions on that subject. And later in the war maybe jets and primitive SAMs.

Radar guided SAMs are the key if you ask me. Much more cost effective. Neither Germany nor Japan (especially Japan) can afford to lose their highly trained aircrew.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

For the Germans:

- Not losing 3,000 aircraft in Tunisia would certainly help. Abandon Africa in early 1943 instead of reinforcing it and keep the Luftwaffe in Europe.

- Winning in the East, would allow air force resources to be sent West, along with equipment production for the army to decrease so resources for an increase in aircraft production to be available. Not to mention freed up infantry can be turned into additional Flak battalions.

- Take all the money, scientists, and resources from the V1/V2 program and reallocate it to the radio guided Surface to Air Missile Program the Nazis were developing.

Henschel Hs 117 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

- Nazis capture Greenland in 1940, temporarily taking the Allies' main source of cryolite, which hinders Allied aircraft production.

 

[RedSword12]

The Germans need to quit on the terror bombing nonsense, or, ideally, drop the idea altogether before the war even starts. That delays British use of terror bombing, saves German aircrews for actually useful missions, and thereby better positions the Luftwaffe to prevent Allied bombing from gaining credence as an effective tool. If they can convince the British government that Bomber Command is a waste of resources, that's a lot of trouble saved in the long run.

 

[mack8]

Radar guided SAMs are the key if you ask me. Much more cost effective. Neither Germany nor Japan (especially Japan) can afford to lose their highly trained aircrew.

Also having the Me-262 operational just 6 months early might make a huge difference, not only in production numbers but also on impact on the air battle, especially coupled with a better initial german response to the day and night attacks throught better/more fighters. SAMs of course would be a huge game-changer as well, not sure the soonest can they be ready in a realistic scenario. But it needs to be 1944 at the latest to matter. Oh and air to air rockets like R4M and even guided ones like X-4.

Anyway, i think it would be helpful if the OP specifies the POD?

 

[CaptainCalvert]

For the Germans:

- Not losing 3,000 aircraft in Tunisia would certainly help. Abandon Africa in early 1943 instead of reinforcing it and keep the Luftwaffe in Europe.

- Winning in the East, would allow air force resources to be sent West, along with equipment production for the army to decrease so resources for an increase in aircraft production to be available. Not to mention freed up infantry can be turned into additional Flak battalions.

- Take all the money, scientists, and resources from the V1/V2 program and reallocate it to the radio guided Surface to Air Missile Program the Nazis were developing.

Henschel Hs 117 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

- Nazis capture Greenland in 1940, temporarily taking the Allies' main source of cryolite, which hinders Allied aircraft production.

Winning in the east isn't exactly an easy fix.

And what are they seizing Greenland with? And how are they going to hold it?

 

[TDM]

Maybe if they don't invade the USSR and devote a lot more resources to air defence,

 

[mtpalmer1]

Neutralize? No. I think US/UK industrial capacity precludes that. The Germans could however incur heavier losses via the methods aforementioned and force a number of temporary bombing halts while Bomber Command & 8th AF build back up their combat strength. It would be a temporary and hollow victory though. Germany lacked the ability to significantly impede that rebuild even with various assorted wunderwaffe. Wasserfall, for example, is technically amazing but there is no danger of it being produced in numbers to stymie Halifax production, let alone the more illustrious types.

To neutralize the bomber offensive, Germany would have to take the fight to the British and American industrial heartlands. They already tried one once and never had any means of accomplishing the other.

Hs-117....

Interesting. That would certainly have a startle-factor initially but once that wore off, I am certain I wouldn't want to be in even a Ju-388 in the same sky as P-51Ds at squadron strength!

Nazis capture Greenland in 1940, temporarily taking the Allies' main source of cryolite, which hinders Allied aircraft production.

Not sure if serious.... How many tins of herring can a ski-equipped Fw-200 carry for 1900 or so miles? Inquiring minds must know!

 

[tomo pauk]

German failings were mostly in the Grand Strategy department - one should need to pick it's fights wisely. Starting a war against a powerful opponent (USSR) before another powerful opponent (UK) is defeated (or at least before there is some kind of peace there) was a grave mistake.

But now that Germany is embroiled in a 3-front war, what to do?
Jet engines probably offer the only way of making the fighters performing much better than what Allied most-produced fighters can do. Flak needs a complete overhaul, with proximity fuses and smooth-barrel guns (for very high MV) as two options that are not mutually exclusive.
AA missiles. German 37 and 20 mm Flak will not cut it against Allied bombers, make a more powerful 37mm automatic cannon.
Can the He 177, Me 210/410. Make the proper fast bombers for intruder tasks (Ju 88 will not cut it). Make 2-stage supercharged engines ASAP, so there is the plan B unless/until the jet engine tech matures.

It is still an uphill battle, though.

 

[Post]

Not sure if serious.... How many tins of herring can a ski-equipped Fw-200 carry for 1900 or so miles? Inquiring minds must know!

This has been discussed in the forum a few times in the past year or so. Apparantly in late 1940 Greenland was very lightly defended, which would make it possible for a relative small detachment of troops to capture the mines and maybe wreck them.
I think it has a very low chance of succeeding and if it did it* would lead to a very strong NIMBY response from the US. Probably not a declaration of war, but a military response (i.e. US troops invading Greenland), an accelerated buildup of military and probably also accelerate US involvement in the Battle of the Atlantic. It also would strenghten the public opinion that Germany would attack the US next.

* and if it didn't succeed, it would probably lead to a similar response.

 

[Flavius Iulius Maiorianus]

What specific improvements could be made to German flak guns and fighters and the way they were used? I don't think getting jets and especially missiles into service sooner is feasible. Especially anti-air missiles; I think the technology was just too primitive for them to be really effective.

Also, for anyone saying don't invade the USSR, even putting aside the Notzi arguments (although I think with some PoDs a Berlin-Moscow Axis is certainly possible), the majority of German fighters and AA guns were on the western front already in OTL, and German production of aircraft outstripped that of stuff like AFVs.