DBWI: Armenia Shrinks

[Mr. Magi]

As we all know, the Kingdom of Armenia a relatively important power player in the region, extending from Rhandeia to Badkub. But that might not have always been the case. While Armenia historically was a powerful regional nation quite a few times in history, it has often been direct vassals or even provinces of empires as well. They also are only the majority ethnicity around some regions of Lake Van, Ararat, and Sevan, while making large minorities in most of its constituent realm.

So I'm just wondering how easy it'd be for Armenia to be a smaller state than it is. I'm not talking like Cilicia, but a reduced Armenian state. I'm thinking something akin to a smaller kingdom or other state around Lake Van or Sevan, or even around Ararat. What factors would generate this?

 

[West]

Simply put Wank the turks, or the arabs.
One way to do it is reroute the forth crusade to Antolia and have it devistate the byzantine, that almost happened in OTL and that would have put the kibosh on the future growth of armenia considering that their basically an Byzantine successor state. Or at the very least they claim to be that.

 

[Mr. Magi]

Simply put Wank the turks, or the arabs.
One way to do it is reroute the forth crusade to Antolia and have it devistate the byzantine, that almost happened in OTL and that would have put the kibosh on the future growth of armenia considering that their basically an Byzantine successor state. Or at the very least they claim to be that.

The issue with the Turks are that barring the Khanates of Ozu and their status as a minority in certain regions of Iran and the easternmost regions of the Armenian and Arabic states, they were only short-lived threats that tended to fragment. Part of it was due to the rites of succession they had which made it very profitable for their heirs to fight it out amongst themselves.

The Arab idea could work though. The Ummayads and for a while the Abbasids did rule over them at least to some degree. Maybe like a longer time under one of the Caliphates Arabicizes them, or supports the Kurds or something? Though they'd have to deal with the fact that society wise the Armenians were a better bet due to having higher social standing.

And tell me more about how this 4th Crusade could work, my understanding of the whole scenario was that even if they managed to sack Constantinople for their payment, the schemers for the Purple acknowledged that it would be more prudent to fight back now, backstab later. I still find it funny that it was the Romani who dealt the final death blow for the ERE in spite of the emasculation given to the nobles by Armenia.

 

[West]

Yeah the Bzyantine empires greatest weakness was the damned nobility. That said the 4th crusade almost did sack the great city, Venice was being difficult and wanted even more concessions.. not a lot of longterm thinking there. The byzantines found out bribed the captains of the fleet to sail to egypt in the hopes of just getting rid of the crusaders all together.

Bzyantium of corse didn't know quite how bad and vicious the Sunni/Shia civil war in Eqypt had gotten. This is revelant because Crusader Egypt split the Jihad movement that tried to destroy the Byzantine empire, this split gave them time to survive until the mongol invasions obliterated the middle east...

Of course like I said the Bzyantines nobility would invite the Armenians in during one of their many back stabbing attempts to get the purple. This of course backfired on them and modernday Armenia is the result.

 

[Mr. Magi]

Ahh, the Crusader States, the artificial constructs that accidentally made the region more peaceful than it would've been otherwise. Palestine being so peaceful (excepting the Swords of Ali and the Samaritan Front) is honestly a blessing. Probably has a lot to do with the comradely attitude the native Sephardim, Mizrahi, and Arabs have with each other. Brothers by Blood and Book indeed.

Speaking of more current events, Romania and Armenia seem to be getting into a bit of a tiff again over western Cappadocia. Rather hope another 1979 doesn't happen over it.

 

[Tyr]

I guess you could make Armenia the country smaller but....what about all those Armenians?
Hard to imagine that they'd accept being ruled by the Turks or whoever.

 

[West]

Ahh, the Crusader States, the artificial constructs that accidentally made the region more peaceful than it would've been otherwise. Palestine being so peaceful (excepting the Swords of Ali and the Samaritan Front) is honestly a blessing. Probably has a lot to do with the comradely attitude the native Sephardim, Mizrahi, and Arabs have with each other. Brothers by Blood and Book indeed.

Speaking of more current events, Romania and Armenia seem to be getting into a bit of a tiff again over western Cappadocia. Rather hope another 1979 doesn't happen over it.

Never tell an egyptian that their state is an artificial one seriously don't. As for the Palestine being relatively peaceful. Well that has more to do with religious tolerance being forced upon the area. After all they went through hundreds of years of religious warfare, eventally people get tired of that crap. Europe went through the same process later on with the wars of religion.

 

[Mr. Magi]

I guess you could make Armenia the country smaller but....what about all those Armenians?
Hard to imagine that they'd accept being ruled by the Turks or whoever.

It's possible that they either remain semi-autonomous due to distance and communication (sort of like when they were under the Caliphate or under the Achaemenids) or get slowly culturally absorbed kind of like how the Mongols were in Iran, or the Western Knights did in Tripoli. Though both helped in that the conquerors began adopting the native religions there.

Never tell an egyptian that their state is an artificial one seriously don't. As for the Palestine being relatively peaceful. Well that has more to do with religious tolerance being forced upon the area. After all they went through hundreds of years of religious warfare, eventally people get tired of that crap. Europe went through the same process later on with the wars of religion.

Their foundation could be argued as artificially enforced by greedy Venetians, but the state itself was always a legit cultural concept; even after centuries of Islamic rule, the Coptic people resisted Islamization pretty well.

Though you have to admit, those Anabaptists seem pretty much akin to the Samaritan Front in terms of still thinking it's still the time of religious war.