Looking at a map, I wonder if the Germans in WW2 could have just established a base at Tarifa and then destroyed the Gibraltar air field with artillery and bombing and used the Tarifa air and artillery base to effectively seal off the Western Med. Of course, this assumes an alliance with Spain (a big assumption) but it would obviate the expensive assault on the Rock.
Did the Germans have to take Gibraltar to block entrance into the Western Med ?
- Thread starter Fulton 44
- Start date
They couldn't destroy Malta with bombing raids. I'm not sure if Gibraltar, which was just as - if not more - important than Malta, would fall so easily.
McPherson
Banned
Analogy is not the best reasoning, but it is a shortcut.
One could figure out how Hawaii was a logistical nightmare to invade and hold that Yamamoto and his staff could never solve because it was at the tactical limit of IJN reach and there were no spare Japanese resources to try for it what with all that war the Japanese bit off already? Plus the army would not go for it.
Add Spain as an additional problem to that loose political-military operational art analogy and that is why the Berlin Maniac never tried. He wanted Franco to do all the actual heavy lifting and Franco told him to go pound gravel.
One could figure out how Hawaii was a logistical nightmare to invade and hold that Yamamoto and his staff could never solve because it was at the tactical limit of IJN reach and there were no spare Japanese resources to try for it what with all that war the Japanese bit off already? Plus the army would not go for it.
Add Spain as an additional problem to that loose political-military operational art analogy and that is why the Berlin Maniac never tried. He wanted Franco to do all the actual heavy lifting and Franco told him to go pound gravel.
Maybe a joint operation of Italians and Germans under Spanish toleration under the conditionnto hand over Gebraltar after the war? War ships, amphibian landings, Air suppport, Parachuters. Maybe if Dunkirk is a much more devasting loss for the Allies. But it will be hard any way and certainly would the local population resists the Axis offensive. It could turn into inother Crete.
Re the local population. That depends upon whether it was before or after the local population was evacuated.
No they didn't. Taking Gibraltar is the most effective way to do it, but all they have to do is render it hors de combat and they can do that by making the airfield and naval base unusable.
hors de combat adjective out of action due to injury or damage.
Yes they could.
Franco giving in to the great temptation in June 1940 is a prerequisite. However, there are the oft quoted problems of the material condition of Spain in the summer of 1940, fuel supply and food supply. And there are the oft quoted problems of the material condition of Spain in the summer of 1940, fuel supply and food supply. Finally for the people that haven't read the last two sentences I acknowledge that it would be difficult for Franco to do that because of the oft quoted problems of the material condition of Spain in the summer of 1940, fuel supply and food supply.
Having acknowledged that the material condition of Spain in the summer of 1940, fuel supply and food supply makes Franco joining the Axis in June 1940 unlikely, making Gibraltar unusable is one of the few things that the Spanish armed forces were capable of.
AIUI they had enough artillery and ammunition for a prolonged bombardment of the naval base and airfield.
Much is made of the coast artillery that the British had at Gibraltar (which included seven 9.2" guns) which would make the strait impassable to Axis shipping, which is perfectly true.
However, one of the things that the Spanish did have an abundance of was cost artillery. Unfortunately, I don't have the exact figures, but the Spanish guns in the Strait of Gibraltar in the summer of 1940 did include some 12" and 11" guns which would make the strait impassable to British shipping.
Deleted member 1487
You're right. Taking Gibraltar wasn't explicitly necessary to shut down the Straits, but holding Gibraltar would be helpful.
Why bother? North Africa was a pointless sideshow with no gain possible for the Axis whatsoever. And as was demonstrated throughout the war, taking out an airfield with artillery and bombing is basically impossible. Their field could be repaired as soon as the attacks stopped. And if they don't stop then congratulations, you've made a pointless sideshow even more expensive. Not counting the vast amount of supplies you're going to have to give Franco to get him to okay this idea.
Spain allowing the Axis to attack Gibraltar via Spain means Spain is now at war with Britain.
Spain loses all of its overseas possesions
Spain loses all of its overseas trade
Spain loses all of its loans from the USA
The Spanish Civil War was still rumbling on in various regions that all goes hot again as SOE pours weapons and cash into the Republican cause
Spanish people starve and have to walk everywhere as there is no food or fuel. In return they get a rock at some point in the future.
Germany gets some Tungsten and Iron Ore but probably has to send an Army into Spain to try and seure lines of communication.
Britain carries on routing its supplies via the Cape.
Have I missed anything out
Spain loses all of its overseas possesions
Spain loses all of its overseas trade
Spain loses all of its loans from the USA
The Spanish Civil War was still rumbling on in various regions that all goes hot again as SOE pours weapons and cash into the Republican cause
Spanish people starve and have to walk everywhere as there is no food or fuel. In return they get a rock at some point in the future.
Germany gets some Tungsten and Iron Ore but probably has to send an Army into Spain to try and seure lines of communication.
Britain carries on routing its supplies via the Cape.
Have I missed anything out
Deleted member 1487
Britain loses it's Potash supplies, Germany gains a bunch of bases much deeper in the Atlantic and can basically dictate to Portugal whatever policy they want, Britain loses Malta and the Central Mediterranean which secures the Axis supply lines, the Vichy fleet is basically trapped in the West Mediterranean and shielded from Allied interference so might become even more Axis favorable to avoid losing colonies to Spain, Britain is stretched even thinner trying to go after Spanish colonies (which they won't necessarily be able to take in 1940-41 given how poorly they did against Dakar), Germany can't launch Barbarossa so that is a vast savings of resources that can be plowed into a Mediterranean campaign and pay for Soviet supplies, and Britain has even more troubles (they didn't spend millions of dollars in bribes to Spanish officials to convince Franco to stay out for no. reason).
The SOE was ineffective in 1940 and especially given the food supply situation the Republican cause in Spain was dead by then anyway, nothing really to revive there. Even Republican exiles who tried to invade in 1944 were dealt with easily and swiftly by Franco's forces:
Spanish Maquis - Wikipedia
Had Spain willingly joined the war it would be extremely bad for the British despite all the serious challenges the Spanish would face.
[QUOTE="Add Spain as an additional problem to that loose political-military operational art analogy and that is why the Berlin Maniac never tried. He wanted Franco to do all the actual heavy lifting and Franco told him to go pound gravel.
[/QUOTE]
You are wrong, Franco wanted to strike Gibraltar, for almost 2 years supplies were stockpiled near the strait to assure a minimum 30 days continious bombardment of the Rock. An officcer with technnical knowledge made aerial photo and film survey of the area during 3 months (later the guy become film producer/director in 60's).
If Franco didn't jump in was not he told Hitler "fuck off" but beacause the bohemian corporal refused to give written assurances on the Spanish reward for joining the war. Hitler said that 15 minutes after he gave the letter the British will know it and strike spain, and in another 15 minutes the french will know too and all territories will switch sides to De Gaulle.
Without that letter Franco can't convince the generals (some under british pay) to risk their necks in exchange of nothing sure. People forget Franco didn't join the rebelion until paid 2 million pesetas by Juan March. If there is no sure prize no risk
[/QUOTE]
You are wrong, Franco wanted to strike Gibraltar, for almost 2 years supplies were stockpiled near the strait to assure a minimum 30 days continious bombardment of the Rock. An officcer with technnical knowledge made aerial photo and film survey of the area during 3 months (later the guy become film producer/director in 60's).
If Franco didn't jump in was not he told Hitler "fuck off" but beacause the bohemian corporal refused to give written assurances on the Spanish reward for joining the war. Hitler said that 15 minutes after he gave the letter the British will know it and strike spain, and in another 15 minutes the french will know too and all territories will switch sides to De Gaulle.
Without that letter Franco can't convince the generals (some under british pay) to risk their necks in exchange of nothing sure. People forget Franco didn't join the rebelion until paid 2 million pesetas by Juan March. If there is no sure prize no risk
Deleted member 94680
How do the Germans gain these bases other than on paper until the RN turns up? If they gain them, what do they use to utilise them?
How do the British lose them here when they didn’t OTL? What are they taken and secured by that wasn’t available OTL?
What is the Vichy fleet trapped by? The Axis has a base, but what do they operate from there that traps a fleet that wasn’t looking to leave port anyway?
I believe they might've been refering to Spanish bases on the mainland, which still would be "more into the Atlantic" compared to Brest/France. But That's arguing semantics.
Agreed. Isn't it also often pointed out that Malta was supplied from Egypt/The Suez route, after a first initial supply run or something? I recall hearing about that or something similar.
The Vichy fleet, which wasn't going to move, is trapped by the empty Axis base. Sounds about right.
Edit: Looks like I was wrong, and a good number of the Malta convoys did come from Gibraltar. Interestingly, there also were a number of them from Alexandria, so it does look to me like they wouldn't have as much difficulty keeping Malta, although they definitely would have to re-arrange several of these convoys. (Additionally, Malta loses a lot of it's value if they lose Gibraltar, as it'd then become the end of the chain, rather than an integral stopping point along the way from Gibraltar-Alexandria)
Last edited:
The Axis are well-served to at least hold Libya and retain command of the Central Mediterranean. Closing the trans-Suez route through the Mediterranean - and in fairness it was not planned by the Axis - was not only an enormous headache for Allied planners but also sharply reduced the tonnage goals the Germans needed to hit with their U-boat campaign, as routing shipping around Africa had the effect of reducing the available tonnage through longer transit times.
What about the Tangier option?
The international city was under Spanish 'protection' since the start of the war. Perhaps, Spanish forces leave and German forces arrive to help secure the peace etc. Not as good as a site as Gibraltar or even Ceuta but an outpost which the Germans could take the Spanish could maintain a fig leaf of plausible neutrality.
The international city was under Spanish 'protection' since the start of the war. Perhaps, Spanish forces leave and German forces arrive to help secure the peace etc. Not as good as a site as Gibraltar or even Ceuta but an outpost which the Germans could take the Spanish could maintain a fig leaf of plausible neutrality.
What I contemplate is this - 1. Spain enters the war on the Axis side - this is expensive for Germany but Germany can get all the oil it wants from the USSR and can probably scrounge for food to help Franco out. They will have to pressure Vichy for some territorial concessions and that may have some costs but they can offer Vichy compensation from British possessions. 2. German and Spanish artillery and German aircraft bring the airfield and harbor at Gibraltar under constant bombardment. If the British want to keep bringing in more planes, then the Battle of Britain is fought here under terms much more favorable to the Axis. 3. Ultimately, the harbor and airfield become untenable and all British ships leave. 4. Spanish and German artillery and air squadrons at Tarifa effectively close the straits to Allied shipping. 5. The Rock is subject to constant bombardment and bombing with no hurry in achieving its surrender. 6. After several months, the garrison - short on ammunition and food - surrenders. 7. The Western Med becomes an Axis lake. 8. Subs can be based in Spain cutting off British shipping heading South making the resupply of Egypt and communication with India more difficult. 9. An Italian navy squadron can be based at Gibraltar and periodically raid merchant shipping in the Atlantic. 10. Malta becomes more vulnerable and is the next target. 11. The Gibraltar operation is really pretty inexpensive other than the costs of bringing Spain into the war. Admittedly, this is a big "other than" but the reduction of Gibraltar has somewhat of a bandwagon effect helping the Axis and definitely helps the overall North Africa campaign. 12. With other measures (capture of Malta and earlier German units dispatched to Libya) , the Suez Canal is taken in early 1941 and the British navy leaves the Med turning it into an Axis lake. 13. At this point - 1. Axis forces can enter the Middle East, 2. Turkey may consider alignment with the Axis, 3. the Russians become concerned about their southern border, and 4. Churchill may become politically vulnerable.
Deleted member 1487
The RN was not ubiquitous given all it's commitments and they needed ground forces as well, which AFAIK weren't really ready for such operations until 1941.
Plus German spies had already set up on the island and were already building clandestine bases in addition to existing Spanish ones, so really all that was needed was to fly in troops and equipment. See how quickly they moved in to Tunisia and earlier Libya for how quickly it was possible to do that.
If they have them they can expand the range of their uboats and air force. Without Barbarossa, which is basically impossible if the Mediterranean option is chosen, there would be virtually unlimited resources for use in Spain/North Africa via Spain.
Because the supplies to the island came via Gibraltar mostly? And now the Axis can focus resources against just those coming via Suez rather than having to split between both east and west routes. Plus no Club Runs, which means death to the ability to resist on the island.
Not being able to get out via Gibraltar. They could try and go via Italy, but the British didn't do so hot there. If worse came to worse there was always the ability of the French fleet to sail to Gibraltar if needed, but that option won't exist here.
Can the Axis supply the Canary Islands? Franco did a pretty good job of purging dissidents from there but there is always someone who wants Independence or likes the UK or the "neutral" US. more than fascist Spain.
In short is Gibraltar worth more than the Canary Islands to Franco? Not saying invading the Canaries is a breeze for the UK but putting a small flotilla of old destroyers to sink any Axis outgoing or incoming ships makes those islands essentially lost for Spain. I really doubt the KM or RM would want to escort duties or that it would be a net gain for them.
In short is Gibraltar worth more than the Canary Islands to Franco? Not saying invading the Canaries is a breeze for the UK but putting a small flotilla of old destroyers to sink any Axis outgoing or incoming ships makes those islands essentially lost for Spain. I really doubt the KM or RM would want to escort duties or that it would be a net gain for them.