España No Ha Muerto: If Franco brought Spain into the Second World War
- Thread starter Iggies
- Start date
I'd think that that would only result in Castille falling to communism (or maybe some kind of falangism making a comeback) after the war. You don't take away territory considered integral to the nation, and that also has a good chunk, if not most, of the country's industry, betray the allies you had in said country in the process, and expect things to be fine afterwards.
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Just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean that doing it is a good idea, or even desirable. Especially if, as previously noted, in this case Spain is the partner who has been reluctantly dragged into the war.
Not forgetting that a much stronger case could be made for how Yugoslavia should be balkanized (after all, the Croats and Serbs spent more time and resources trying to murder each other than fighting the Axis) and "nobody had any reason to keep Yugoslavia united and strong for the future Cold War."
This is omitting the fact that what it would seem is not "we are doing justice" but "we are cowardly trash who dare not tell the Soviet Union to give Poland back its 1920 borders, so let's take out our frustration with these unfortunates. Our only intention is to demonstrate how strong we are by forcibly balkanizing a defenseless country, because we are creeping cowards who only attack those who are incapable of defending themselves, but also we show ourselves complacent and submissive to those who can hit us back."
Also, what Mildyth said: Why unnecessarily piss off people who would no doubt be willing to demonstrate their commitment to the Allies and against the Axis with a little kindness?
"Realpolitik" likewise states "You DO NOT unnecessarily piss off people to 'show your strength' because they might decide tomorrow that they prefer to ally themselves with your geopolitical rivals because that's what usually happens when you piss off people AND at the same time demand them to support you."
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Following this--it's interesting 
Not a time I know much about, though...certainly using the red cross for targets is unlikely, but propaganda films can sure claim it. (And the people making the films might believe it, depending on how the claims were made.)
Spain's government is going to be completely redone after the war, build up from scratch. I suspect that the Crown Colony of Gibralter will get a little bigger--as in a buffer zone--and Spain prohibited from closing the border.
To deal with various separatist groups, more local autonomy might be written into the new constitution.
I wonder if some propaganda use might be made of the monument to the constitution of 1812--one of the few monuments to the early Spanish constitution that survived, since the new regime ordered them all destroyed when the constitution was destroyed.
Perhaps Spanish troops training in the US for deployment to Spain could be filmed with the monument?
Not a time I know much about, though...certainly using the red cross for targets is unlikely, but propaganda films can sure claim it. (And the people making the films might believe it, depending on how the claims were made.)
Spain's government is going to be completely redone after the war, build up from scratch. I suspect that the Crown Colony of Gibralter will get a little bigger--as in a buffer zone--and Spain prohibited from closing the border.
To deal with various separatist groups, more local autonomy might be written into the new constitution.
I wonder if some propaganda use might be made of the monument to the constitution of 1812--one of the few monuments to the early Spanish constitution that survived, since the new regime ordered them all destroyed when the constitution was destroyed.
Perhaps Spanish troops training in the US for deployment to Spain could be filmed with the monument?
Plaza de la Constitución Historical Marker
The oldest public space in America, the plaza was laid out by Spanish Royal Ordinances in 1573. (A historical marker located in St. Augustine in St. Johns County, Florida.)
www.hmdb.org
I am sure that any Allied invasion of Spain will start through Portugal they are if memory serves me right one of Englands oldest Allies.
Spain will suffer a lot of pain for having invaded Gibraltar hopefully when the fighting is over the Allies will force Spain to relinquish any and all claims to
Spain will suffer a lot of pain for having invaded Gibraltar hopefully when the fighting is over the Allies will force Spain to relinquish any and all claims to
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Yes... realistically, there is no way that any kind of peace treaty will be signed with Spain that DOES NOT include some variant of "The Spanish State explicitly, unequivocally and in perpetuity renounces any territorial claim to Gibraltar."
Other things could generate more discussions, but this one will undoubtedly be one of those that will not generate any debate among the Allies...
Other things could generate more discussions, but this one will undoubtedly be one of those that will not generate any debate among the Allies...
You misunderstand, the reason why Allies didn't go whole hog and carve out Germany into more states to break Prussian militarism for all time is because of the need to keep it nearly intact for Cold War purposes. That was the realpolitik consideration. Spain is on the margins of Europe and so slicing off Catalonia to reward the resistance movements there would thus be less obstructed by a need to keep the country intact as a bulwark against Soviet (or alternatively, NATO) power. Not saying that they would, but it's somewhat more likely that they could. It also depends on who exactly are the people rising up in Spain and committing themselves to the Allies against the Axis. If it is regionalists, maybe they do want some balkanization, for their home region. Alternatively if it's localized leftists maybe the Soviets are the ones who want to split off the red Catalans or whomever to get their East Germany West on the Mediterranean.
Anyway, balkanization is unlikely to happen because it is the affectation of AH maps and easy different for the sake of different, but it's fun to think about.
Garrison
Donor
If starvation and chaos are happening in Spain Portuguese neutrality may not mean much. They may not have any choice but to join the Allies.
Plus, the Atlantic Wall just got stretched to Gibraltar, with a massive hole the size of Portugal. The Axis can't leave it to chance for Portugal to get strong armed into the Allies. Which they'd absolutely be trying to do with invasion plans being written up like with Norway.
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I think it's more likely that if there is a conflict through Portugal it will be Hitler ordering Franco to invade Portugal rather than Salazar drinking the British koolaid and trying to launch an invasion of Spain through Extremadura.
Salzar was pro-British, not suicidal: he would know very well that in the event of a conflict with Spain he would see at least half of his own country devastated long before any hypothetical British aid arrived (if there is any aid, of course).
So he's not going to fight that war unless someone (for example, Hitler launching an invasion of Portugal from Spain with his Iberia Korps, dragging the Spanish army with him) forces him to. Although if it has to fight this war, Portugal certainly will.
As for invading from Portugal... well, the terrain in the Extremadura area is so harsh that even today communication is very difficult, so in 1940 it is even worse.
Salzar was pro-British, not suicidal: he would know very well that in the event of a conflict with Spain he would see at least half of his own country devastated long before any hypothetical British aid arrived (if there is any aid, of course).
So he's not going to fight that war unless someone (for example, Hitler launching an invasion of Portugal from Spain with his Iberia Korps, dragging the Spanish army with him) forces him to. Although if it has to fight this war, Portugal certainly will.
As for invading from Portugal... well, the terrain in the Extremadura area is so harsh that even today communication is very difficult, so in 1940 it is even worse.
That's what I was thinking, Hitler trying to in his mind preempt the Portuguese from joining the Allies by invading them and then well history just repeating itself.
Who'd you think the British would send to Iberia as commander?
Is the most likely development of this situation.
IDK, I'm not so familiarized with British officers, maybe Montgomery? I mean, Afrika Korps apparently not exists here...
Olivença surely, but I doubt Portugal wants more.
(This is in reference to a very common fantasy I see here about how Portugal will claim Galicia as part of their country).
Far from seeing it as an opportunity to make Portugal great, Salazar would see it as a heavy burden: a territory that he does not want, that is devastated, that will be a money pit for decades, with a hungry and traumatized population that it is doubtful that it will be in capable of supporting itself (and given the state of psychiatric services in 1940 it is doubtful that Portugal could do much to help them...)
I got a late start reading this. Great work so far. Not sure if someone else has made this point:
An artillery company is more commonly called a battery.
I am wondering if the stay-behind Royal Navy intelligence crew of Operation Tracer will make an appearance.
I would imagine that Spain now already entering WWII on the side of the Axis Powers would affect Portugal's neutrality and possibly the supply of British troops via the Mediterranean when Francoist Spain tried to seize the opportunity by taking over Gibraltar, but it would not only drag the scale of the war but would cause logistical problems for the Allied forces in Egypt.
How would the battles such as El Alamein, Tobruk, and other the scope of military operations in North Africa, once the Spaniards would try to help the Axis forces by cutting the maritime supply lines in the Mediterranean Sea?
How would the battles such as El Alamein, Tobruk, and other the scope of military operations in North Africa, once the Spaniards would try to help the Axis forces by cutting the maritime supply lines in the Mediterranean Sea?