España No Ha Muerto: If Franco brought Spain into the Second World War

Ramontxo

Donor

I don't think you have mentioned Jesus Galindez in your tale and I think you may find him interesting. As I understand it he worked with the Allied intelligence services during the war (as a sort of liason with the Basque Nationalist Party and its home organisation) Wiki points to this collaboration been maintained after the war. IMHO a very interesting figure
 
Thanks for the update! Loved the look at in-universe cinema.

One point I noticed:
There is a – probably apocryphal – story that one of the GIs who arrested the real Queipo de Llano in 1943 punched the general in the gut and exclaimed, “that’s for Rita!”
This suggests that it won’t take long for the Western Allies and the US to start notching up land victories against Axis Spain, if GIs are capturing Spanish generals by 1943.

(Also, love the mental image!)
 
Excelent work Iggies, the spanish poltics in the 30 were really complicated, especially among the republican exiles (was a box of crickets out of control, very similar at modern spanish politics).

Seeing how the allies sort this mess is going to be very interesting, also seeing how the axis suffers at the hands of the spanish resitance wil be very satisfying 😈 .

I think ta this post of Mitridates the great is a god point for the begining, but, as old refran say: el diablo esta en los detalles (the devil is in the detail), and the detail on the spanish politics are landmines. The Allies will have to step some toes to achieve a functional governmente in Spain. And the most probable step toes were the anarchist and the comunist.

I not rule out a posible agreemnet between the main republican faction and the monarchist, all dependens de the situation in the penisula.

Edit: sorry, I corrected some misspelled words.
 
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I find this TL fascinating for reasons others have given--a very neglected POD, with major (though in a sense limited) consequences to divert WWII considerably for one thing. Perhaps more factionally and controversially I certainly have a strong sentimental wish that the Loyalist/Republican side had won the SCW and quite a lot of detestation for Franco, so it is gratifying to know his comeuppance is here foredoomed by the middle of the decade rather than 30 years later, if indeed he is not caught by some partisan patrol or shot by an assassin before his Falange is destroyed completely.

And I also find the thread is mainly carried by your own authority as author, and in general I have to defer to your opinions and decisions because it seems evident you know your detailed stuff when it comes to Spain in the decade 1935-1945.

It is only that deference that lets me swallow the POD itself--for while I don't doubt Franco was hardly a genius nor credit him with good will of any kind, still OTL it seemed evident he was intelligent enough to realize that at best Spain would suffer badly before being redeemed by any open and unambiguous Axis alliance no matter how much he might have both expected and hoped Hitler would indeed triumph.

Yet I think you've made the case he would not have to be handed any ASB Idiot Balls to impulsively decide to do it anyway, in the hope and expectation of Spain (the part of his nation he cared about anyway) would prosper by joining the winning side and striking while the iron is hot. And certainly step one would be expelling the British from Gibraltar. Which phase I think you handled quite masterfully.

Now the situation is far too volatile, along the lines you've given canon guidance so far, for me to really visualize what happens next.

You've made it clear Spain (practically and realistically speaking, actually with the Wehrmacht doing the heavy lifting, much as in the Gibraltar adventure) pretty much has to invade Portugal, the only alternative as Hitler and Franco see it being to quickly persuade Salazar to burn his bridges with the British (now the Yankees too, but up to this point Portugal didn't have much to say one way or another to Uncle Sam I am aware of, you may know otherwise but it is the relationship with the UK that has history behind it, and at this early moment in US war mobilization, greatly dominates whatever limited forces the W-Allies have in hand) to also jump into the Axis bed and suffer the immediate consequences.

Quite aside from any personal differences or regime style distinctions between Salazar and Franco, what Portugal has to potentially gain versus what they will suffer and probably lose even if the Axis does prevail is much less than what Franco could hope for--the main reason Salazar would have to consider is whether Portugal can survive opposing the Axis in the short run at all.

If it were a straight and local war between Spain and Portugal in isolation, Salazar could hope perhaps to hold at least some of his land and maybe even to prevail, though that seems quite unlikely on the face of it--certainly Spain fighting to conquer Portugal on her own hook would have to pay a heavy price and even in victory, maintain a sullen and costly occupation. But of course it is actually the Reich forces Portugal must face, and though Hitler has every motive to economize on what he must send to Iberia, surely he will send in whatever it takes to secure and then hold both Spain and Portugal.

But Salazar I would guess (again you may know otherwise) would be very skeptical of the idea that Hitler, despite his late '41/1942 apparent roll, would win in the long run, and even if he guesses there might be some sort of "white peace", I don't think he'd reckon Portugal would rate any big favor points from Hitler, whereas in the case of such a truce, surely while the semi-victorious Axis would have leverage to gratify Franco (if only with the British having to sign off on having lost Gibraltar) Portugal would in that case lose her entire colonial empire, all of it. Even a semi-victorious Hitler would lack power projection to leverage anything outside of Europe itself, and even the closest of Portugal's overseas holdings, Azores and Madeira, would surely fall into British hands (possibly handed on to the Yankees, who would probably set them up as some sort of mini-republican federation), never mind the African and Asian holdings--at best, the Japanese might be persuaded to hand back East Timor and Macau--but really why should they, even assuming Japan is included in this unlikely "white peace" anyhow?

More likely if the Americans are going to throw in the towel in the European theater it would be to double down in the Pacific and it would be the Yanks or British who wind up administering Portugal's Asian-Pacific holdings such as they were.

All Salazar has to gain for Portugal in an Axis alliance is mere survival of the homeland, and that after being starved and battered. Even in the event of a total Allied collapse, of Britain and the checking of Soviet counter-advances at any rate, and a Britain cravenly signing off on the Axis getting carte blanche for naval global power projection (surely the USA won't agree, even if we were to judge ourselves unable to actively pursue opposing it violently for the moment), still Hitler is hardly a generous master to kowtow to. He'd be quite likely to take anything really valuable for Germany, never mind moral obligations to his stooges.

Anyway it is clearly a case of Victory or Death for both sides of this unconditional total war.

So even if Salazar underestimates the qualities of the US forces and supposes per his reactionary ideology the Reds too will be mowed down on the Eastern Front, at any rate Britain is not going to surrender while they can still get American supplies (not to mention those from their own empire, the parts the Japanese have not taken anyway, and the French colonies and everyone else's too). Even supposing the Yankees remain easily demoralized and confused clowns, there will after all be a whole lot of us coming by and by, in relative material luxury too.

What would be best for Portugal would be to remain neutral for now. Then switch to an Allied status once it becomes clear the W-Allies are both going to win the war and have enough to spare to make a DOW against Hitler Franco and gang something some of Portugal might survive the inevitable counterinvasion from Spain to be sure, but clearly not in January 1942!)

And if Hitler at least, never mind his lapdog Franco who will heel as told to, were to look at it most cold-bloodedly, he would also favor letting Salazar stay on the neutral fence, for with Franco throwing away the benefits of neutrality for Spain, leaving Portugal at least neutral gives some window onto world trade. Of course, versus OTL with both Iberian nations legally out of the fray, the W-allies (practically at this point, the British) must tighten up the blockade, because trade that was grudgingly allocated to Spain through either Spanish or Portuguese ports must now be dried up completely and Portugal herself, neutral or not, must go down to half-rations because of course the Allies are certain Hitler will strongarm Salazar to release much of what Portugal minimally needs, to feed both fascist beasts, the great Reich and its pathetic and now totally isolated sidekick Spain too.

Mind, I can see why, aside from his maniacal arrogance and monomania, a cool headed Notler would be fairly likely to make a clean sweep of it and demand to rope in Portugal too. After all the whole premise of Axis strategy such as it was was to achieve quick and massive victories immediately, on the theory that their liberal and leftist foes lacked moral strength and would fold, and if they muddle-headedly resisted the superior race with its superior preparation for victory at all costs they would be eventually decimated and collapse perforce.

Hitler doesn't think his total victory in the East is all that far off at this point--the "rotten door" did appear to indeed crumble at the first kick, now he is a bit surprised to find yet more rotten doors behind the first one but he doesn't doubt yet (if he ever did) that they too will fall and sooner or later the Undermen will be at the disposal of the Supermen, it is just a matter of a year or two at most. He doesn't much care how much Spain suffers, they are at best a people with some possible candidates for proper Aryan status hidden among them in his racist view; such superior men among the half-men will surely have the strength to prevail and the more of the lower sort who are mowed down by hunger or order-keeping bullets or long tortures in camps, the better both for the Aryan Reich and for what part of Spain is worth worrying about.

A more pragmatic, less dogmatic German high command officer might not have Hitler's supreme confidence in destiny, but certainly on paper at this early phase of this war of Germany's choice, it looks like they are going to win it, in the Eurasian Heartland anyway which should once taken under ruthless German management supply plenty to overcome the British and Americans on the world's high seas (once the necessary fleets are built) and in the shorter run, the Bolsheviks are surely on the point of final collapse, the British are short in supplies and short-handed (again, such a staff officer will probably discount the value of manpower recruited from Africa and India--their mistake!) and the Yanks will require years to build up anything to worry about. So it might seem in a headquarters in Berlin.

So, the short term costs of repressing any Portuguese resistance, and foregoing any trickle of rationed maintenance supply a neutral Portugal might be allowed to import, and fending off British commando raids and so on, won't seem to weigh much versus securing that coast--which is IIRC pretty much what you said governed Axis decision-making. As seen from the palaces of Berlin or Madrid, Salazar will join up if he knows what is good for him, and if he doesn't--they will brush him aside. Quickly and decisively.

So naturally, I have been waiting for the canon post that finally describes, not in retrospect but in full as it happens, the manner in which the Axis does in fact move in and take the country. Of course I don't figure it will go exactly as smoothly for the Germans (surely the Spanish forces will be operating largely as sidekicks) as they think it will. I expect that Salazar will in fact rally some serious resistance and roadblocks, if only to buy himself enough time to escape to the Azores.

When I myself, without your intimate knowledge of details of who was what in Spain in this era, have tried to visualize my own versions of such a war (I never dared imagine Franco would blunder quite this badly, and figured a Spanish theater of the European war would have to involve a Republican victory and perhaps a number of French forces taking refuge there rather than surrendering under Vichy, so it is a different scenario) the main thing I wondered was, just what material help, with men or equipment, the British could possibly offer an anti-Axis resistance of any kind. My assumption was and still is that at a moment like this, the end of '41 and immediately after, there is pretty much nothing they can bring in, certainly not on a scale able to hold anything much against Hitler sending in whatever it takes to prevail as soon as possible.

OTOH, the British have already been engaged hotly at Gibraltar, and suffer for their losses there...but surely they have had some time to anticipate the next move and look into what sort of help they can give to anyone minded to resist.

I don't suppose Salazar can quite manage what the Kingdom of Norway did, and organize stay-at-home subjects of overbearing Reich power into a branch of the formal military as the Norwegian resistance, under the command of the Crown Prince, was commanded. And to be sure, while the Norwegian Resistance performed some quite noble and useful deeds, they generally avoided spectacular confrontations and played a long game of quiet espionage and sabotage.

Still with some British help, along the same lines as the agents sent in to make contact with and assist the Spanish guerrillas, despite occasional betrayals and collapse of will by some people treacherously undermining the rest, at any rate the Germans will find Portugal a bit hot to hold on to. And despite the motive of "finishing the Atlantic Wall" being foremost and decisive in undertaking this invasion in the first place, one of the major tasks of Allied aided Portuguese resistance would be to weaken and undermine that Wall, and leave some holes in it--some the Germans suspect and sit on, perhaps thus masking others they don't realize are weaker than they think.

Invading Iberia is not what I would write the Anglo-American leading powers decide to do assuming I ever imagined this incorporation of Iberia into the Axis. In my own more favored romantic idea of the Loyalists having prevailed and giving refuge to fleeing French forces, it would be different, because the pro-allied side would control the countryside and opposing the Reich forces would be a matter of trying to solidify the border with France, and containing and slowing any salient the Germans manage to push onto Spanish soil from northeast and northwest (figuring the middle of the Pyrenees might hold if refugee French and handfuls of British forces could suitably reinforce Republican Spanish forces there). I would figure, as some commentors have done despite your tipping the hand that there will indeed be a hot front in Iberia, that Portugal like Norway would be left largely alone, and let Hitler waste time and nervous energy as well as material resources and men bogged down there to oppose an invasion he feels in his bones must come there.

OTL Churchill himself strongly desired to make some landing in Norway and engage the Germans there, and of course romance and moral hopes would yearn to liberate the Norwegians ASAP despite their sins of omission of being so sadly unprepared to fend off the Nazi invasion--they paid in blood and misery for that, pretty heavily, and surely deserved better just for their staunch refusal, in the main, to be seduced by Hitler and Quisling offering to take them in as honored fellow Aryans. "Aryan" or not they retained, with remarkably few exceptions, decent human beings and paid a steep price for their goodness. And strategically there might well have been a rational case for choosing to start re-engaging Reich forces there alongside the gratification of liberating them. It certainly seemed so to both Churchill and Hitler!

And yet it did not happen, and when VE day finally came with Doenitz's surrender, the Reich was reduced to a skinny ribbon of territory--with masses of Italy at one end, and all of Norway (and Denmark of course) at the other. The Norwegians then activated their militarized Resistance as a disciplined army assisted by British forces to roll up both the stranded Reich forces and the few collaborators they had marked down on their lists, and by and large the Quislings and German criminals against humanity were arrested and detained pending proper trials which they got.

So by analogy I would have expected Iberia to be bypassed in favor of the war going much as OTL, as much as that would be possible with Gibraltar in effectively German hands. Of course the Reich doesn't have a surface navy to speak of already at this point, more of one than the RN liked of course, but they could hardly hope to move any of their cruisers or battleships down to there without the odds favoring their simply being sunk on the way, even hugging the coast.

As a naval port, then, Gibraltar is a pretty Pyrrhic victory for the Axis.

But what is really nasty about it is that it denies the Allies the air port they'd need to try to interfere with the Luftwaffe--and of course I can't imagine that had the British somehow been able to hold The Rock, that they could then base nearly enough aircraft to run nearly enough sorties on that limited airstrip to do more than annoy the dozens of bases the Luftwaffe could surround them with to even defend the port itself, never mind block them from a reign of airborne terror over the Strait. With or without a single man in Gibraltar itself, just as well as if Hitler could just have pushed a button sinking it into the sea to join Atlantis and deny it to everyone for all time, it is these Luftwaffe attack planes flying out of any airfield the Germans care to make anywhere in southern Spain, that is the real Axis strategic victory here.

Can the RN, or USN, run that gauntlet at all, never mind with low enough losses to make it worthwhile? Eventually perhaps yes, once there are a lot more carrier hulls to engage their airborne attackers and deny the Germans air superiority over the Strait, maybe.

But I guess I have in my dialectical manner convinced myself just why and how the W-Allies decide they will indeed contest the Axis on Iberian soil. The main thing is to root out those Luftwaffe airfields, and get enough secure airstrips of their own to bring in the RAF and USAAF.

As I foresee it now--it is all about Torch. I don't know enough about the details of Operation Torch to guide me too well, in particular whether it might be possible for the Allies to go south of the range of the Luftwaffe bases in southern Spain and concentrate on western Atlantic coast of Morocco and then slog overland east to take the southern shore of the strait and thus contend with the Germans in the air over it from those bases.

rBut given we are told the Americans and British will indeed be fighting it out on Spanish and Portuguese soil, I expect the Anglo-American planners conclude nope, that's not an option, and given that they can't do it with the Strait closed (not to mention, failing to cut out the chain of bases in Spain means the Axis planes can just deploy in Spanish held north Africa, and all across Vichy Algeria and over the Sahara for that matter) they must bite the bullet and invade Iberia somewhere to proceed. If they can secure a single lodgment somewhere on the Portuguese or southwest Spanish coast, and hold it (relying to an extent on Spanish and Portuguese resistance they can much better supply and coordinate if they have a base on the iberian mainland to impede German-Spanish initiatives) then the plan would be to include some airbases in the secured zone and confront Axis air forces, interfering immediately with their ability to interdict the Strait and then in time denying those bases one by one, presumably converting them to Allied ones and eventually open the strait completely--at that point, the Axis Gibraltar garrison can be contained and left to surrender or starve at their commander's discretion.

Regaining the Rock would be nice to have, but not at this point necessary, just so long as RN/USN/allied ships can proceed unhindered except by U-boats. Securing the coast to deny the U-boats any nearby safe ports would be a priority as well.

With this done, in theory Iberia could be put on a back burner, but in practice of course they won't want to merely hold a perimeter, and halting at that point would be a betrayal of whatever help the guerilla Resistance has given them, and of Salazar's presumed decision to throw in with the Allies the moment the Axis loses patience and comes in in force. Moral claims might have little weight in practice in this brutal war, but they tend to correspond to some pragmatic wisdom, and pragmatically the thing to do is follow through with whatever it takes to liberate all of Portugal and Spain, and if they can manage enough airbases and sorties to open the strait they surely must be in a position to do that.

Therefore I figure now, much of what went to Torch OTL is redirected here to land somewhere in the southwest, to drive a sweep across southern Iberia to first interfere with and then hopefully interdict the Strait from Axis air strikes. Then it would be necessary to delay Torch a while longer, to enable the Americans in particular to ramp up recruitment and training and stockpile more equipment and ammo to sustain the Iberian campaign while replenishing to enable Torch as well. But meanwhile once the Anglophone navies (with small numbers but valiant of various Allied naval forces, such as the intrepid Polish and Dutch submariners) at least eventually the Strait would be more effectively closed to German U-boats. (OTL the Med was a death trap for those subs, but they did a lot of damage before facing their doom one by one, so it is a tradeoff between lost OTL opportunities to take out a U-boat versus avoiding what those U-boats did before they went down, and anyway in the ATL there won't be any question--keep the U-boats out and trap any that are already in!)

I'm fond of airships by the way, and was very keen to learn that in WWII, eventually American blimps were moved (via Brazil to West Africa, the airships crossing that relatively short distance under their own power) up to the Med late in the European war to do minesweeping and the like. I'm thinking here they might be brought over, somehow or other, to operate out of southern Spain and North Africa right around the strait. (If someone doesn't know this, blimps were quite valuable in impeding the operations of U-boats).

Conceivably, Torch is bypassed completely, despite being the premise for invading Iberia in the first place, because obviously the Germans are going to fight as hard for their version of Spain as they did for their death grip on Italy OTL. Therefore the Iberian campaign will be a grim and bloody slog for initially green Yankee troops, and the seasoned but few British and allied divisions.

It could also be that perhaps, with lots of the OTL Lincoln Brigade volunteers again volunteering for their better supported rematch against the fascists, that a number of them will be routed to Spain and somewhat salt the new minted American forces with their experience on this same terrain quite recently. OTL Torch was where the American forces made their most spectacular rookie mistakes, including breaking and running....though even then, having giving their Axis foes a pleasant not-quite-surprise at this apparent display of the basic unfitness of a liberal society in the age of the fascist New Order, many of them gave them another much less welcome and total surprise by abruptly stopping, turning and shooting back, which was quite discomfiting to the I believe it was Italians in North Africa. Well, here in Spain they'd usually be facing Wehrmacht troops and even with that belated bravado taking even the Fritzes by surprise, they would suffer more for it. But perhaps some of these lefty ALB veterans will help make up for that, and prevent some units that did run OTL from running in the first place, and buck up the others who do run--get them to turn sooner, get them to stand harder, bring them up to speed more quickly now that they are actually listening with keenest interest in just how to survive and someday win.

For the Yanks in particular it would be a bloody slaughter at first, and if Allied logistics are not just overwhelming we might even be driven off again, though I infer from the foreshadowing that at least won't entirely happen. But the survivors will come back a lot tougher than before, yet another disconcerting surprise for the smug German officers and sergeants. And if Allied logistics are not so stupendous at first, they soon will be.

I suspect the Iberian campaign then will cost Eisenhower or whoever is running it a lot more than plans anticipated. But vice versa, for that to be true it has to be costing Hitler a lot more than he bargained for as well. If he does not allow it to deplete the Eastern Front more than Rommel and then the defense of Italy diverted OTL, I think the Axis would be on the back foot in Spain sooner (from the start of the campaign I mean, thus very much sooner than reaching a given benchmark in Italy) and lose ground more quickly than in Italy OTL--whereas if Hitler wants to try and hold that ground, and push through enough strike planes to deter the main Torch operation from being launched, he will be worse off than OTL on the Soviet front. And that being the case, presumably then the Russians do better sooner and the final eastern reach of Axis advance is farther west, and the rollback westward starts earlier and reaches farther west on any given date versus OTL. Which might have some bearing on the final post-war outcomes, perhaps it will be the West that gets the smaller part of Germany.

Then again, if the Eastern front is stalling and crumbling, surely Hitler will belatedly re-prioritize there and might even write off Iberia for the moment, resolving to hold at the Pyrenees pretty much, concentrating holding forces around Barcelona and whatever the town I can't be arsed to look up standing for the western end of the range is, with crack forces in small numbers holding the ridge line between and walling the Allies off from France in that direction.

Even so, Stalin has his Second Front he demanded so much OTL, two years early I guess. Even with the Germans holding that line economically and the Allies not yet ready to go around either end for quite some time, if Hitler must concede Spain and it and Portugal are liberated this early, while the manpower they offer to the war effort is not great and the material resources probably best measured in negative numbers, well logistics, supply, kit, ammo, even food are not something the Western allies are short of. After the turmoil of the past 6-7 years or so joining an Allied Spanish Republican (I am pretty sure it won't go to a monarchy however token and constitutional, not with none of the candidates having any kind of track record supporting the Allied side) or Portuguese state army would probably be the safest and most materially prosperous condition the majority of Spain's miserable subjects have seen in a long time, and those two armies would have rations and ammo and kit all given to them mostly from America. They will be experienced, and motivated; the mere defense of Spain's border might wind up safely entrusted to them while the rest of the Allies move on to other fronts.

Or they could just stay right there in Spain, with Portugal liberated behind them and a lot of Portuguese men and probably a fair number of women in their own uniforms right there with them, and mass up to break through, probably on the Mediterranean end though perhaps breaking into Gascony instead might have the merit of surprise I suppose, and start liberating France in the south long before OTL D-Day in Normandy.

Then too--if the Germans are hotly engaged in Spain and on the Soviet frontier, can they spare nearly as much to reinforce the "Atlantic Wall" where it is most needed around the English Channel? Surely they must try, but if they keep getting scanted perhaps one of the predecessor plans postponed to Overlord OTL can work due to weaker German fortification in the north because they are being bled in the south of France. Perhaps it will not be necessary to develop all the expensive innovations, Mulberries and so forth, to land on Norman beaches if it is possible to seize Calais instead? I would hardly want to count on it. But maybe?

So much depends on how Hitler reacts. I hardly think at this point already it matters what Franco or Mussolini might be moved to try, they will do as their German minders tell them to do and like it or else.

I have a few other points of deep interest to me, but your latest post partially answers one of them, with useful hints as to the range of possibilities of governance in liberated Spain (which despite different political circumstances would also shape that of liberated Portugal) and postwar. And a question that your latest post on the US Home Front campaign of the various Spanish opposition factions (well, 2 of 3, the Reds and the anti-reds, monarchism has limited traction in New Deal USA though more in the UK--surely there are some Yankees who think a Spanish king is proper and Romantic, and quite a lot of Britons whom however loyal enough to their own King don't particularly care to gift the Spanish with one certainly if most of them don't want one, but by and large the Communists and anti-Communist Republicans are bidding for Yankee favor and the monarchists for British) along with the Hollywood War does give me a hook to ask.
 
.....
The form of government of this future Spain was left vague, except for stipulating that it be “democratic.” By this vagary, Martínez Barrio and his collaborators hoped to attract even the support of disgruntled Spanish monarchists, at least the less hidebound ones who might be amenable to a constitutional monarchy.
Personally I'd be most pleased to see the whole idea of Spanish monarchy die a long deserved death (though I suppose I ought to credit the man who was king in the aftermath of Franco's death OTL with help in making Spain decently democratic today). But just how many serious contenders for the throne are there at this point anyway? Franco wanted Alfonso, Churchill wants the Borbon, and clearly those two ought both be clean out--Juan Borbon having burned his bridges by his scruples at this urgent juncture. So are there others that might square the circle, at least among the monarchists we aren't hoping will be locked up for treason and crimes against humanity if they are lucky enough to avoid being lynched forthwith? I would guess these two whose names come up here are the leading two candidates and both of them seem sadly compromised.

My guess is that democratic majorities will strongly oppose any monarch whatsoever, anyway that's my hope. Again though you are the expert and history is often twisty and surprising, so we'll see I hope.
...
Also in attendance were at least two veterans of the XV International Brigade’s ‘Abraham Lincoln Battalion’: the German-born Hermann Bottcher, who within the month would ship out for Australia with the rank of private in the US Army and make a name for himself as ‘the One Man Army of Burma,’ and Alvah Bessie, one of the oldest men to have fought with the American contingent in Spain, a standby of New York City’s leftist literary scene and an aspiring screenwriter.
Oops it seems I forgot where the part of the quote I wanted to hook this question to was, and deleted it along with the rest of the Hollywood stuff. But anyway since there you talk about Hollywood's version of both the Civil War and the current Spanish guerilla Resistance, in terms of the politics of governing Spain during its liberation and postwar--

Any chance we might see a Spanish "TIto?"

That is--by and large in most countries, "The Resistance" was multiplied and glorified far more in post war retrospective boasting than it generally accomplished in real life, but OTL Yugoslavia was one major exception. There, for good or ill, Tito came to command unquestioned respect in a Partisan movement strong enough that when the Red Army made its way to Yugoslav borders via its conquest of Hungary, Tito was in a position to send the Soviet troops on their way through territory his Partisans had already liberated, and had enough force and moral authority at least with his fellow Communists to forbid any of them to linger around to "help." No, we're running this country now, we'll handle the mopping up and routing out enemies of the people, thanks for being on our side Comrades and good-bye! There's Austria right there, don't delay...

This probably has much to do with why, when Stalin decided his former reliable hatchetman in the Balkans had to go and attempted his coup against Tito later in the decade, Tito was able to check it and send the Soviets packing. No Red Army occupation, no Warsaw Pact membership, and no kowtowing to Moscow.

By a "Spanish Tito" I am by no means asking for another Communist regime that happens not to look to Moscow (anymore; certainly Tito was a loyal agent of Comintern policy before the war and thought himself still one after it, until rudely disabused of that fancy by the Russians). I certainly don't mean a monarchist or a fascist, but other than that all I wonder is, might not the natural leader of Spain postwar turn out to be a person who had a track record similar to Tito's in Yugoslavia, that is an able partisan combat leader who also proved on the spot to be an able juggler of political contradictions and able to arrange truces and compacts between rival factions?

As I gather it, Tito mostly accomplished his power and prestige by being in a position to insist on his way or else, but he could only do that I gather also by demonstrating some merit and winning people over.

So postwar--we anticipate Spain being a mess. Churchill you ATL-quote as being forthright for a "democracy" that excludes both Reds and fascists, and favors a monarch. FLE is frontrunner for public opinion support in the USA and the Communists have their own "united front" that winds up including just themselves. But do any of these factions have the traction to run Spain as a whole?

Again I am trusting that whatever ultimate answers you offer will be well founded and plausible, whether pretty or the opposite.

Just pointing out I guess to all the people running various candidates based on prewar and OTL track records, be they pretenders to the throne or republican politicos--this war is a whole new reality, and it seems more likely to me that whoever actually runs Spain postwar is going to be someone with a following based on what they do during the war.
 
So having read a bit more about Torch, first of all I was surprised how very late in 1942 it began, in November in fact! I guess the late autumn/early winter weather in northwest Africa is not nearly as forbidding as elsewhere--which raises the question here just what the seasonal conditions are like on the southwest Iberian coast instead.

Versus approaching northwest Africa with menacing intent, one severe problem for such an invasion, presumably with all three task forces concentrated on just one target I'd think, is that as noted, the major Axis gain from eliminating Gibraltar dog in manger style is the ability of the Luftwaffe to deploy to interdict the Strait. But if they can do that, and I don't see why not, surely they can drive off a naval descent on southern Iberia pretty handily too. OTL NW Africa was in French hands, and Vichy did not have the sort of military budget, equipment nor mobilization (not to mention morale) the Germans had. So it is plausible, given these limits, that the seaborne attacks could come in close, and shell their targets and land troops. But to do that in a Spain hosting Luftwaffe bases seems much more daunting to me.

Perhaps then an Iberian landing has to begin a lot farther from the goal zone of southern Spain, way up in Galicia or of course somewhere on the Portuguese coast, in order to stand a chance of getting a beachhead and then suitable air bases to ferry in enough fighters, and then later attack planes/bombers and transports, to start tying down the Luftwaffe covering the strait, and perforce have to slog across the entire north-south distance of the peninsula to approach the targets overland, establishing forward bases as they go.

It would be a great boon if it were possible to fly aircraft directly from England to bases in northwest Spain--one compensating merit of being forced to go the long way round like this. If it is one. Last time I looked at the ranges of such planes as Spitfires and Hurricanes (or early US fighters aka "Pursuit" models) it would not be possible to do this though some of the planes came close to almost making it. Of course carrier planes can be flown off carrier decks and perhaps such planes could operate by first flying to such a carrier in the middle of the Bay of Biscayne, or even far enough west that the Luftwaffe would find them at very long range or out of it completely from the French coast, and then after landing and refueling, proceed on to a captured field in Galicia, and thence into the fray. But naval carrier fighters tended to be at some disadvantage versus top line land planes, and presumably the Germans would concentrate their best to crush the invaders.

On the other hand, if Torch was not undertaken before November (well, the ships sailed some weeks before the landings themselves began I guess) then there is still some good time in the spring or summer or maybe early autumn of '42 to try to invade Iberia somewhere, and for planners to hope they could pivot a lot of the forces to Torch--also I guess if Torch could happen in early November as far as weather goes, it might be delayed some months into midwinter and still be no less feasible--if and only if the strait is secured well enough, and the Germans can't strike from southeast Spain at the ships and their landing zones either. Which means of course liberating the entire southern coast of Spain, but I was figuring on that anyway.

Or of course I could be far too impatient and just have to wait for the W-Allies to build up a lot more hulls and airframes and tanks and so forth and it might not be realistic for anything much to happen in Iberia until well into 1943, or later.

Given that Churchill thought a landing in northern France could be done as early as summer of that year, and a number of Americans hoped so too until their studies disabused them of the notion, at any rate much of the logistics and kit and personnel must be available by say September '43 if not in '42.

Hitler might think it necessary to reinforce and extend the Atlantic Wall, but the two ambitions are in conflict with one another. Even if the Spanish and Portuguese were meek lambs welcoming the Germans and giving them no trouble at all, it seems obvious to me that scattering coast watchers, never mind artillery, and I presume air bases, all along the coasts from the French border in Navarre to Gibraltar would at a stroke require at least as much as securing the entire French Atlantic coast, and if they have any reason to fear approaches anywhere on the Med it would be triple that, or as much more as the northward extension of the "wall" to Jutland's northern tip. Until the landing I suppose they might think they need not beef up the Mediterranean shore too much--British warships can still enter the Med from the Suez canal surely, but they have a heck of a lot of logistical tail to get there, and then have to run an Axis-dominated gauntlet at least starting with Sicily if not before--they'd have a lot of warning anyway even if some warships could bull through, and any transports and cargo ships in the convoy would be pretty unlikely to survive.

Still, take whatever was budgeted, in terms of material and men, for the Atlantic Wall along the French Atlantic coast--then double that to also cover guarding the Spanish and Portuguese Atlantic coast as well.

You know if it weren't for author prophecy affirming the Allied forces will in fact be engaging the foe in Spain, I'd wonder at this point if the outcome is to enable more successful landings in France very much earlier!

One reason I am in such a hurry to see a landing in Iberia long before the OTL Torch D-Day is that I figure this is a race between the ability of the W-Allies to land something, even if small, versus the ability of the Germans to get the coast defenses built up. They are going to be a year and a half behind the works on the French coast which I presume got going in late summer/early autumn 1940. (Also I would guess French infrastructure, railroads and surface roads and so on not to mention foundries and so on, is far more helpful to installing and perhaps even manufacturing, or pulling old Great War guns out of mothballs, than would be the case on the Spanish coast, especially in places like Galicia and the Basque country and so on).

With that kind of lead time, clearly Iberia will remain a preferred target despite its much greater distance from British home ports.

Against this--German troops are already deployed in Spain, originally to take Gibraltar, but I doubt all of them left. For one thing Franco needs them to help try to keep what he calls order in a Spain where his popularity is down in the toilet.

Of course this also means that if even an Allied feint or mere commando raid in force lures those troops over to drive the invaders off, the people and regions these occupiers were keeping the lid on might boil right over. Then of course Hitler would send more armies--depending on the timing, and how badly that would disrupt the Eastern war plans
 
So having read a bit more about Torch, first of all I was surprised how very late in 1942 it began, in November in fact! I guess the late autumn/early winter weather in northwest Africa is not nearly as forbidding as elsewhere--which raises the question here just what the seasonal conditions are like on the southwest Iberian coast instead.

Versus approaching northwest Africa with menacing intent, one severe problem for such an invasion, presumably with all three task forces concentrated on just one target I'd think, is that as noted, the major Axis gain from eliminating Gibraltar dog in manger style is the ability of the Luftwaffe to deploy to interdict the Strait. But if they can do that, and I don't see why not, surely they can drive off a naval descent on southern Iberia pretty handily too. OTL NW Africa was in French hands, and Vichy did not have the sort of military budget, equipment nor mobilization (not to mention morale) the Germans had. So it is plausible, given these limits, that the seaborne attacks could come in close, and shell their targets and land troops. But to do that in a Spain hosting Luftwaffe bases seems much more daunting to me.

Perhaps then an Iberian landing has to begin a lot farther from the goal zone of southern Spain, way up in Galicia or of course somewhere on the Portuguese coast, in order to stand a chance of getting a beachhead and then suitable air bases to ferry in enough fighters, and then later attack planes/bombers and transports, to start tying down the Luftwaffe covering the strait, and perforce have to slog across the entire north-south distance of the peninsula to approach the targets overland, establishing forward bases as they go.

It would be a great boon if it were possible to fly aircraft directly from England to bases in northwest Spain--one compensating merit of being forced to go the long way round like this. If it is one. Last time I looked at the ranges of such planes as Spitfires and Hurricanes (or early US fighters aka "Pursuit" models) it would not be possible to do this though some of the planes came close to almost making it. Of course carrier planes can be flown off carrier decks and perhaps such planes could operate by first flying to such a carrier in the middle of the Bay of Biscayne, or even far enough west that the Luftwaffe would find them at very long range or out of it completely from the French coast, and then after landing and refueling, proceed on to a captured field in Galicia, and thence into the fray. But naval carrier fighters tended to be at some disadvantage versus top line land planes, and presumably the Germans would concentrate their best to crush the invaders.

On the other hand, if Torch was not undertaken before November (well, the ships sailed some weeks before the landings themselves began I guess) then there is still some good time in the spring or summer or maybe early autumn of '42 to try to invade Iberia somewhere, and for planners to hope they could pivot a lot of the forces to Torch--also I guess if Torch could happen in early November as far as weather goes, it might be delayed some months into midwinter and still be no less feasible--if and only if the strait is secured well enough, and the Germans can't strike from southeast Spain at the ships and their landing zones either. Which means of course liberating the entire southern coast of Spain, but I was figuring on that anyway.

Or of course I could be far too impatient and just have to wait for the W-Allies to build up a lot more hulls and airframes and tanks and so forth and it might not be realistic for anything much to happen in Iberia until well into 1943, or later.

Given that Churchill thought a landing in northern France could be done as early as summer of that year, and a number of Americans hoped so too until their studies disabused them of the notion, at any rate much of the logistics and kit and personnel must be available by say September '43 if not in '42.

Hitler might think it necessary to reinforce and extend the Atlantic Wall, but the two ambitions are in conflict with one another. Even if the Spanish and Portuguese were meek lambs welcoming the Germans and giving them no trouble at all, it seems obvious to me that scattering coast watchers, never mind artillery, and I presume air bases, all along the coasts from the French border in Navarre to Gibraltar would at a stroke require at least as much as securing the entire French Atlantic coast, and if they have any reason to fear approaches anywhere on the Med it would be triple that, or as much more as the northward extension of the "wall" to Jutland's northern tip. Until the landing I suppose they might think they need not beef up the Mediterranean shore too much--British warships can still enter the Med from the Suez canal surely, but they have a heck of a lot of logistical tail to get there, and then have to run an Axis-dominated gauntlet at least starting with Sicily if not before--they'd have a lot of warning anyway even if some warships could bull through, and any transports and cargo ships in the convoy would be pretty unlikely to survive.

Still, take whatever was budgeted, in terms of material and men, for the Atlantic Wall along the French Atlantic coast--then double that to also cover guarding the Spanish and Portuguese Atlantic coast as well.

You know if it weren't for author prophecy affirming the Allied forces will in fact be engaging the foe in Spain, I'd wonder at this point if the outcome is to enable more successful landings in France very much earlier!

One reason I am in such a hurry to see a landing in Iberia long before the OTL Torch D-Day is that I figure this is a race between the ability of the W-Allies to land something, even if small, versus the ability of the Germans to get the coast defenses built up. They are going to be a year and a half behind the works on the French coast which I presume got going in late summer/early autumn 1940. (Also I would guess French infrastructure, railroads and surface roads and so on not to mention foundries and so on, is far more helpful to installing and perhaps even manufacturing, or pulling old Great War guns out of mothballs, than would be the case on the Spanish coast, especially in places like Galicia and the Basque country and so on).

With that kind of lead time, clearly Iberia will remain a preferred target despite its much greater distance from British home ports.

Against this--German troops are already deployed in Spain, originally to take Gibraltar, but I doubt all of them left. For one thing Franco needs them to help try to keep what he calls order in a Spain where his popularity is down in the toilet.

Of course this also means that if even an Allied feint or mere commando raid in force lures those troops over to drive the invaders off, the people and regions these occupiers were keeping the lid on might boil right over. Then of course Hitler would send more armies--depending on the timing, and how badly that would disrupt the Eastern war plans
I'm 99% certain with the way the hints were laid out in the Portugal update that the Allies won't need to make beach landing. If I'm right it seems like Salazar dies in a last stand that will have Portugal hold long enough for the Wallies to land in force enough to keep it from completely falling.
 
I'm 99% certain with the way the hints were laid out in the Portugal update that the Allies won't need to make beach landing. If I'm right it seems like Salazar dies in a last stand that will have Portugal hold long enough for the Wallies to land in force enough to keep it from completely falling.
It wasn't so much the Hail Mary Pass nature of a plan to fight a sacrificial delaying action to allow the allies to come avenge the leader's death that put me off thinking something like that.

It is mainly that the British are still a bit low on force and the USA is entering this war almost literally yesterday. It is all very well to throw open the harbor of Lisbon to welcome in a bunch of troopships--but can any Ally fill enough troopships right now to be anything but a second sacrifice to the Wehrmacht--especially since if that is how Salazar goes, there is not a moment to lose, the barbarians are just about at the gate, or in this case pier, already.

Perhaps I was crazy or something when I read the thing about Salazar's ATL fate, but it seems to me right now it was about something happening just after the war or say 5 years later, around 1950 or so.

Meanwhile, the way the references to the war in Spain have been handled it looks like it is pretty much an American show, on the W-Allied side--this could be because the ATL "sources" are skewed to an American audience, and certainly I don't doubt the British are there too.

But having this scenario happen means it is much more a British story (fair enough, so was Gibraltar) this early in the war. Britain has the ships and apparently has kind of enough men to parry off whatever fraction of the Wehrmacht Hitler can spare. But Uncle Sam is just training up the new army and can't provide more than token numbers of men, or ships either.

So I figured that gratifying as it would be romantically speaking, to have a joint Anglo-American fleet come cruising into a friendly dock in Lisbon or perhaps several ports at once, and disembark to rush straight to fight the Germans halfway to the shore from the border--too bad, it can't happen because the resources are not there yet, and perforce the allies have to come sneaking in some morning much later, as late as Torch OTL or later--or maybe earlier, if in fact the Portuguese can pull off what the Resistance in Morocco did OTL and disable the shore guns.

I await the author settling the matter.

Certainly if I believed there were a surefire way to guarantee an unopposed, ideally assisted, landing of enough troops to make it worth the Portuguese people's while to cross the Germans, then I'd have adduced that as an argument to go ahead and plan an Iberian theater and argue it is better than the OTL Torch/Sicily/italy sequence. It just seemed to me also that even at a later date when there is plenty of Yankee manpower and the production is getting up toward wartime peak levels, just embarking all those troops with all those supplies would tip off the Axis the invasion is afoot, and if they have unaccountably left Portugal unsecured up to this late date they'd move it on it immediately. More likely of course, the Germans will invad*/e just any day now--long before a rescue fleet can get itself positioned, or for that matter put out to sea.
 
Perhaps I was crazy or something when I read the thing about Salazar's ATL fate, but it seems to me right now it was about something happening just after the war or say 5 years later, around 1950 or so.
It says Salazar only ruled for 10-12 years depending on who's counting. Given that if they're counting it as 12 they're likely going to back to when he became minister of finance. Since I doubt he'd willingly step down in this scenario it's almost certain he dies defending Portugal during a Spanish invasion. Which along with the other hints in said update do indicate it causes the country to hold long enough for the Wallies to arrive in force.
 
@Shevek23 Damn. It's honestly quite flattering to have someone write up such a thorough and well-thought out speculative post on something I've written. I appreciate it. Without spoiling anything, I'll say a lot of your speculations are pretty much spot on for what I have planned, a few others not so much. But you also raise a number of points that tbh I had not even considered. I have the main beats of this story planned out, but the details are always subject to change. If I want to use anything you've suggested here, I'll let you know.

With regards to, in particular, the plausibility of an Allied invasion of Iberia, I think it's probably true that a temporary bypassing of the peninsula might be the most realistic route for things to take. That said, while I do try to imbue this story with as much plausibility as I can (with the caveat that while I know a fair bit about Spain in this period, at least for someone whose Spanish is not too good and thus can't make as much use of Hispanophone sources as he would like, I'm not an expert), it's not quite the strictest of strict AltHist, where you set a POD and then try to game out, in as hardnosed and realistic a fashion as possible, what the most likely outcomes would be. I knew from the start that I wanted to have Allied troops fighting in Spain (actually that was sort of the genesis of the TL; I'm too lazy to dig it up now but a few years ago when I was in college I made a thread asking what an Allied invasion of Franco's Spain would have looked like, so the idea's been bouncing around in my head for a while) and though I don't think it's ASB or anything like that, I'm willing to bend things a little to make it happen,
 
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Although the Germans now have access to a barrier line of bases on the Iberian and North African shorelines to shield Vichy North Africa, the additional length of coastline acquired that must be incorporated into an Atlantic wall of some sort will be ruinously expensive. In fact so expensive I doubt that it will be attempted and a line at the Pyranees planned for instead.

The Allies on the other hand get a nice string of air bases 18 months earlier than OTL to protect the SLOC from the U-boats. It's unlikely now that the U boats will have anything like the success of OTL and the Condors will be severely impacted too from the bases in the Canaries, Funchal and the Azores. And the same bases will provide some degree of land based air support for any rentry into North Africa and/or Portugal.

So an alt-Torch could be an invasion of Spanish North Africa (and later Morroco) with Spanish North Africa taking place much sooner than Torch IOTL.

With the British much more on the defensive in Egypt and Libya this may peversely free up troops for an intervention in Portugal. It will depend a lot on how big a contribution the Germans can afford to make. The bigger the contribution the easier it will be for 8th Army to fend off the Germans and Italians.

So we may end up with a couple of sideshow theatres which will stretch both sides' logistics but the Allies are probably in a better position to keep their forces supplied than the Germans are.

It's not going to be pretty in Portugal and every month that Salazar can buy will improve the odds of Allied intervention. But if he can stretch it out until the Autumn of 1942 then there is a chance IMHO.
 
The Allies on the other hand get a nice string of air bases 18 months earlier than OTL to protect the SLOC from the U-boats. It's unlikely now that the U boats will have anything like the success of OTL and the Condors will be severely impacted too from the bases in the Canaries, Funchal and the Azores. And the same bases will provide some degree of land based air support for any rentry into North Africa and/or Portugal.

So an alt-Torch could be an invasion of Spanish North Africa (and later Morroco) with Spanish North Africa taking place much sooner than Torch IOTL.
How about the Canary Islands as a part of the opportunity for Allied forces to invade them during the alt-Operation Torch as a 'measure' to deny future operations by the German U-boats and naval fleets to interdict or harass supply ships for the Western Allies?
 
How about the Canary Islands as a part of the opportunity for Allied forces to invade them during the alt-Operation Torch as a 'measure' to deny future operations by the German U-boats and naval fleets to interdict or harass supply ships for the Western Allies?
The British have already done that on the bounce. And they will do the same to Funchal and the Azores.
 
And could it possibly liberate France on the Southern side coinciding with the OTL D-Day landings in Normandy by sending Western Allied forces from the Pyrenees?
First they have to land in Portugal in strength to fend off the Spanish and Germans. Then they have to occupy half of Spain to reach the Pyrenees. Then they have to force the Pyrenees (not easy). Then they have to reach a major French port.

TBH it's probably easier concetrating on holding Southern Portugal and Southern Spain and reopening the Straits of Gibraltar if you want to carry out Dragoon.
 
First they have to land in Portugal in strength to fend off the Spanish and Germans. Then they have to occupy half of Spain to reach the Pyrenees. Then they have to force the Pyrenees (not easy). Then they have to reach a major French port.

TBH it's probably easier concetrating on holding Southern Portugal and Southern Spain and reopening the Straits of Gibraltar if you want to carry out Dragoon.
Given that Salazar poitedly does not survive, I suspect that Lisbon falls but quickly becomes a pyrrhic victory as the Spanish state more or less collapses under its own weight.
 
The British have already done that on the bounce. And they will do the same to Funchal and the Azores.
AMERICANS will do the same to the Azores, as one of their opening moves.
Anyway, a joint operation against Spanish Morocco WITHOUT involving French possessions and with some German and Italian air presence in Andalusia would be extremely risky. It should be improvised in a few weeks, before daylight akes things easier for Axis subs, torpedo and dive bombers.
I can see the US sending in a Marine regiment and their division they historically sent first to Northern Ireland, and the Canucks sending one of theirs, still without reasonable air superiority this is unfeasible.
 
AMERICANS will do the same to the Azores, as one of their opening moves.
Anyway, a joint operation against Spanish Morocco WITHOUT involving French possessions and with some German and Italian air presence in Andalusia would be extremely risky. It should be improvised in a few weeks, before daylight akes things easier for Axis subs, torpedo and dive bombers.
I can see the US sending in a Marine regiment and their division they historically sent first to Northern Ireland, and the Canucks sending one of theirs, still without reasonable air superiority this is unfeasible.
Air base is already in British hands on Grand Canaria which is only 200 miles away compared to 800-900 miles from mainland Spain. I don't think Spain / Germany would be able to maintain much in the way of an air force in Spanish Morocco in the face of an Allied base in the Canaries.

Spanish garrison was something around 7-8 divisions pre 1941 having been reinforced since 1939. Quality is dubious as three of them are recently raised. However 2 divisions is still likely a bit light for an occupation, maybe 4 or so is more likely to be required
 
If the war is over a year earlier, with FDR still alive and kicking, the drama between the US and the European colonies would be interesting. FDR (and the US as a whole) were moving to an anti-colonial position, while Europe thought they needed their colonies to rebuild from their profits.

FDR said in one conversation with Churchill that every European colony must be free post-war. Churchill then brought up the Philippines, maybe to try and connect to an imperialist feeling within Roosevelt, only to be immediately shot down by FDR proudly saying it will be independent by 1948 (2 years late from OTL, but he has the spirit).
 
Spanish garrison was something around 7-8 divisions pre 1941 having been reinforced since 1939. Quality is dubious as three of them are recently raised. However 2 divisions is still likely a bit light for an occupation, maybe 4 or so is more likely to be required
Well the same can be said for the american force, they are still greatly untested and need to effectively fight to resolve their problems, OTL they have done by fighting Italy in North Africa, here any Torch equivalent will be much harder due to the lack of control of Gibriltar that mean no possibility for a direct landing in the Algerian coast while the force in Egypt are on more on the defensive and with Malta under more pressure while Regia Marina had more breathing space, Italy can sustain the war effort for more as a lot more of material will reach destination instead of being sunk
 
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