Mary of Burgundy could marry Louis XI's younger brother Charles (they even received papal dispensation, but Charles died in 1472), who'd inherit French throne after Charles VIII if he outlives him
It depends upon the definition. 😉As someone ignorant on the subject I want to ask something that has to do with the topic but isnt exactly what OP questioned
How valuable was Burgundy exactly?
I know it was a important territory and a matter of pride as well, but I've never seen anyone talking how much the winner so to speak would gain from it even though when discussing stuff like american colonies we do have a idea of how valuable they were
As Alex said it best, the lands were EXTREMELY profitable, especially Flanders(due to the Wool trade with England and it's Port on Antwerp) and Zeeland and Holland given both the several merchant cities in those areas who had trade everywhere as well as the proto industries to support such cities, no wonder that area was a pioneer in early capitalism.As someone ignorant on the subject I want to ask something that has to do with the topic but isnt exactly what OP questioned
How valuable was Burgundy exactly?
I know it was a important territory and a matter of pride as well, but I've never seen anyone talking how much the winner so to speak would gain from it even though when discussing stuff like american colonies we do have a idea of how valuable they were
First, thank you so much for the detailed answerIt depends upon the definition. 😉
“Burgundy” in this context may mean different things:
- The Duchy of Burgundy - valuable but nothing really special. Rights of the French crown to it, after Charles’ death were not under disputation.
- Burgundian state - the Duchy plus Artois, Flanders, Luxembourg, Hainault, the county palatine of Burgundy (Franche-Comté), and other lands obtained through marriage. These additions (at least some of them) were extremely valuable. Some of them were, at least in formally, vassals of France but some belonged to the HRE. Even the “French” parts were not uniformly eager to join the Kingdom of France and even as a part of the Burgundian state tried to preserve their numerous liberties.
What the winner could get depended upon how strong he was. The Valois dukes, IIRC, had agreements with each of these entities but not an uniform taxation of all territories and even in the Duchy Charles had the estates to vote for a grant needed for his military expenses. Quite possible that similar situation existed elsewhere. Plus probably there were some payments to which the ruler was entitled. A later attempt by the Duke of Alba to enforce a standard sale tax was one of the triggers to the well-known misunderstanding with the Spanish crown.
But, anyway, the sums obtained were seemingly huge: the Burgundian court was considered the richest in Europe.
“The Valois dukes consolidated the richest fiscal apparatus in France, generating a huge revenue above all from their Northern holdings. Between 1379 and 1384 when Philippe relied on revenues from the Burgundian heartland his annual revenue was around 140,000 livre turnoi from his ducal lands and taxes. With the addition of Flanders revenues soared, to 270,000 in 1395 and 696000 in 1402-3, with the vast majority coming from Artois and Flanders. p. 108-109. This made him by far the richest prince in France.” https://adamtooze.com/2017/05/31/medieval-burgundys-abortive-state-building/#:~:text=The Valois dukes consolidated the,his ducal lands and taxes.
Later:
“The ordinary expenditure for the household and the salaries exceeded 400,000 livres a year. The ordinary budget of the war treasurer amounted to 800,000 livres, the extraordinary budget as a rule to 160,000 livres. The argentier, who had to defray the cost of the legations and journeys, as well as the necessary gifts and the wardrobe, spent at least 200,000 livres a year.” http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/arth214_folder/burgundian_court_cartell.html
But http://markgreengrass.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Appendix-23.pdf gives data for Charles V and breakdown is quite interesting. The Netherlands were giving much less in taxes than Castile or Naples but much more in the subsidies.
Indeed, now imagine the Kings of France earning that alongside their usual income, not to mention all the possible taxes on population, internal trade, agriculture, etc... That's a load of money to be used, either on Mercenaries or exploration or even just centralizing the country even harderFirst, thank you so much for the detailed answer
You absolutely didnt have to do so much, though knowing you I expected nothing less
As for the numbers, I went with the bigger ones - 696000(nice) & 800000 - and according to a quick Google search a livre was about a pound of silver(no clue if that was a stable value) which is approximately half a kg, so I put that data on a currency converter and hold & behold thats the result I got
- $296,717,954.05
- $341,055,119.60
Sounds like a pretty good gain alright
But I'll leave the accuracy of that up to you
Or actually making Europe have good culinary!Indeed, now imagine the Kings of France earning that alongside their usual income, not to mention all the possible taxes on population, internal trade, agriculture, etc... That's a load of money to be used, either on Mercenaries or exploration or even just centralizing the country even harder
Thanks. I’m completely trusting your calculations. My main purpose was to show a relative value of the components and underscore that, within the existing framework, the taxes from the Low Lands were relatively small but the rulers could ask (and get) much greater amounts with the agreement of local Estates.First, thank you so much for the detailed answer
You absolutely didnt have to do so much, though knowing you I expected nothing less
As for the numbers, I went with the bigger ones - 696000(nice) & 800000 - and according to a quick Google search a livre was about a pound of silver(no clue if that was a stable value) which is approximately half a kg, so I put that data on a currency converter and hold & behold thats the result I got
- $296,717,954.05
- $341,055,119.60
Sounds like a pretty good gain alright
But I'll leave the accuracy of that up to you
The question is simple, basically France is capable of acquiring the whole of the Burgundian Inheritance, either via Mary of Burgundy being born later and being wed to Charles VIII of France or the French having success in conquering it fully from the Austrians or maybe Charles the Bold is infertile after a accident and when he dies, Louis XI claims his lands and brings them in. Either way, the Burgundian Inheritance ends up fully French.
Question is, what now? For centuries the ambitions of French kings lay in expanding towards the Low Countries well until Louis XIV and it laid the path for several wars that while not always winning, did manage to solidify the modern borders France has today alongside a centralized existence, so would the French kings turn to Italy now? Or maybe try and get the "natural" borders into the Rhine? This also ties into centralization as the Kings of France would definitely add those lands to the Royal Inheritance but the locals already didn't enjoy Charles' centralization efforts and they would like even less the French king ones, not to mention the reactions of their neighbors: England is probably shitting itself, Spain would be even more hostile and I can't imagine the HRE being happy that several lands of the empire are now under French control just like that.
As Alex said it best, the lands were EXTREMELY profitable, especially Flanders(due to the Wool trade with England and it's Port on Antwerp) and Zeeland and Holland given both the several merchant cities in those areas who had trade everywhere as well as the proto industries to support such cities, no wonder that area was a pioneer in early capitalism.