House picks 16th President [1861] [read before voting]

[DuQuense]

Please read the comments and the wiki before voting

It is February 28th 1861 - Lincoln was killed in the Baltimore Riots 5 days ago. The Supremes have ruled on who picks/becomes President.
The Constitution makes it Congresses job to pick the President, and the clock is ticking.

Each State has one vote and there are 27 states [Arkansas, Tennessee, North Carolina, Virginia, have yet to leave].

Our Candidates are ....................

President James Buchanan, Jr - Democrat -- [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Buchanan Long shot but a possibility, Reelecting Him is a simple solution

Hannibal Hamlin -- Republican -- [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Hamlin Lincoln's Vice President elect. Ardent opponent of slavery. If you go with the Obvious -VP Elect becomes President Elect.
However it is only 20 years since the US asked question of wither the VP became President or Acting President. And if he served till Novembre, or the rest of the Presidents term.
Not so Obvious in 1860.

Benjamin Fitzpatrick -- Democrat -- [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Fitzpatrick President Pro temp of the Senate -- If the House hasn't picked by March 4, He will become President till the Novembre Special Election.

William Pennington -- Republican -- [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pennington Speaker of the House, If Fitzpatrick declines, Pennington becomes President.

Stephen Arnold Douglas -- Northern Democrat -- [http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h87.html 2nd in popular vote, 4th in Electoral Votes.

John C. Breckinridge -- Southern Democrat -- [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Breckinridge 3rd in popular vote, 2nd in Electoral votes

John Bell -- Constitutional Union Party -- [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bell_(Tennessee_politician) The Comprise choice.

William H. Seward -- Republican -- [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_H._Seward leader in first 3 Ballots, but Lincoln pulled ahead in the 4th Ballot.

?So who will be the 16th President? ?And Why?
[ If you support someone not on the list tell us about Him]

 

[Mikestone8]

It is February 28th 1861 - Lincoln was killed in the Baltimore Riots 5 days ago. The Supremes have ruled on who picks/becomes President.
The Constitution makes it Congresses job to pick the President, and the clock is ticking.

[snip]

Benjamin Fitzpatrick -- Democrat -- [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Fitzpatrick] President Pro temp of the Senate -- If the House hasn't picked by March 4, He will become President till the Novembre Special Election.

William Pennington -- Republican -- [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pennington] Speaker of the House, If Fitzpatrick declines, Pennington becomes President.

How so?

Hamlin was legally elected VP by the Electoral College. Lincoln's death does not invalidate that. Surely if no President is chosen, then he becomes at least Acting President.

If so, it probably accelerates secession as he had something of an abolitionist record. Maybe Kentucky secedes?

 

[DuQuense]

Hamlin was legally elected VP by the Electoral College. Lincoln's death does not invalidate that. Surely if no President is chosen, then he becomes at least Acting President.

Seems that way to us today, But there was a major Constitution Question Raised with Tyler's accession to the Presidency.

A longtime Democratic-Republican, Tyler was nonetheless elected Vice President on the Whig ticket. Upon the death of President William Henry Harrison on April 4, 1841, only a month after his inauguration, the nation was briefly in a state of confusion regarding the process of succession. Ultimately the situation was settled with Tyler becoming President both in name and in fact. Tyler took the oath of office on April 6, 1841, setting a precedent that would govern future successions and eventually be codified in the Twenty-fifth Amendment.

Basically -- Tyler Refused to Accept the title Acting President, and refused to accept any talk about any special Novembre Election.
He had the Job and dared anyone to try to take it from Him.

Whe are now only 20 years later. The Supremes will say Hamlin was Elected VP, not President. That is a job for the House under these conditions.

 

[MNP]

A few things:
1.What's with the Novembre?
2.You need to remove the ] at the end of the URLs to all your links, it makes them not work.
3.Is it possible Hamlin remains as VP for any new president? So Stephen Douglas with Hamlin as VP. That would be an interesting situation....

 

[DuQuense]

2.You need to remove the ] at the end of the URLs to all your links, it makes them not work.

Fixed

3.Is it possible Hamlin remains as VP for any new president? So Stephen Douglas with Hamlin as VP. That would be an interesting situation...

Sort of the Idea.

 

[Lord Grattan]

Seems that way to us today, But there was a major Constitution Question Raised with Tyler's accession to the Presidency. Basically -- Tyler Refused to Accept the title Acting President, and refused to accept any talk about any special Novembre Election.
He had the Job and dared anyone to try to take it from Him.

Whe are now only 20 years later. The Supremes will say Hamlin was Elected VP, not President. That is a job for the House under these conditions.

The succession issue was settled by 1860/61. Not only was there the Harrison-Tyler succession precident there was also the Taylor-Fillmore succession precident. Your scenario would be more likely if say Taylor lives through his 1st term and wins reelection w/Fillmore in '52 but dies in say January 1853. You do make a good point though, as the SCOTUS had never (and I don't think has ever) ruled on what happens when a President-elect dies before assuming office. Still, by 1860/61, people would presume and agree that the VP would assume the office on Inaguration Day for a full 4 year term. Remember too, that the SC might well take the view that they had no jurisdiction over the matter and decline to take the case, as elections in the US - even for President & Vice President - are state, not federal political matters, best delt with by state courts. Also, w/Lincoln dying just a few days before Inaguration Day as you propose, everyone will be looking to resolve the matter quickly, thus Hamlin becomes the one to swear to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States" on Inaguration Day.

I see 2 things happening if Lincoln dies 4 days before Inaguration Day...
-Hamlin becomes the 16th POTUS on March 4, 1861
-The Civil War has a bloodier beginning

 

[Philadelphus]

the SCOTUS had never (and I don't think has ever) ruled on what happens when a President-elect dies before assuming office.

This is a good point. (In fact, the Supreme Court doesn't rule on hypotheticals; you need a real "case or controversy." So they haven't ruled on this.)

I'm not sure what would happen. Remember the electors have already met, state by state, and made their states' choices for President and Vice President, and the House has certified that. So Hannibal Hamlin's already Vice President-elect, and I don't see how that changes.

But...and I don't see it raised in the thread yet...does the Constitution give the House the responsibility of electing the President in this situation, or only if the Electoral College has failed to arrive at a winner, which isn't the case here?

And if the job doesn't fall to the House, I have no clue where that leaves us. Can the Electors meet again? I think the date of their meeting is specified somewhere, so they may not be able to. If they can meet, would that even provide an occasion to bring the already-seceded states back into the fold? Maybe a move to elect a compromise candidate develops in the North.... But it would have to happen very fast, and the Republican electors who account for nearly every northern electoral vote might not be open to that.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Either the Republicans simply block all efforts and Hamlin assumes the presidency or the Republicans rally behind Stephen Douglas, which will also irritate the southerners beyond belief.

 

[DuQuense]

the SCOTUS had never (and I don't think has ever) ruled on what happens when a President-elect dies before assuming office.

This is a good point. (In fact, the Supreme Court doesn't rule on hypotheticals; you need a real "case or controversy." So they haven't ruled on this.)

I An assuming for my TL that all 9 justices are in Washington, and take the case under emergency procedures.

These Judges are being asked to decide something that is not [explicitly] in the Constitution. They can ..........

Punt -- This is not in the Constitution, so it is a state Matter and neither the Court or Congress has any say.

Take it easy -- Hamlin is the VPE, and automatically take the PE's place. This seem Right to today's people.
But, as my Poll show's Hamlin leading all the others combined. ?Is this really what everyone thinks the 1860 politicians would do? ?Is Hamlin really the best man for the Job?

Take it easy 2 -- Confirm Hamlin as the next VP, but extend Buchanan's term till a special election is held.
Any TL with Buchanan staying in Washington pass March 1861 almost guarantees the CSA.
Buchanan thought secession Illegal, but also thought the President didn't have the power to call out the Troops.
[Like to see the Buchanan voter explain his vote]

Stall -- If they wait till after the 4th - Buchanan's term runs out - the Pres Pro Term [or if he declines Speaker of the House], as per the Constitutional Provision for no President available, gets to be Acting President, till a new PE is elected.
[IIRC this happened once, The PE was not available, The speaker was sworn in as Acting Pres, Spent the day at home, doing daily chores, the next day the PE was sworn in and back to normal].

Reading the Constitution - I believe that the Founding Fathers wanted The House to be in Charge of Picking the President. It is the House that Counts the Electoral Votes.
Or picks the President if there are problems. And, This is a Mother of a Problem. SO..

Pass the Buck --
The Judges will hear a couple hours of oral arguments, retire to their chambers , Read the Federalist Papers, and come back and give the Job to the House.
However as this is not in the Constitution, the House is allowed to consider other candidates. This gets us Steward the runner up at the Republican Convention.
My Timeline My choice, Hence this Poll.

 

[Philadelphus]

I An assuming for my TL that all 9 justices are in Washington, and take the case under emergency procedures.

These Judges are being asked to decide something that is not [explicitly] in the Constitution. They can ..........

Punt -- This is not in the Constitution, so it is a state Matter and neither the Court or Congress has any say.

Take it easy -- Hamlin is the VPE, and automatically take the PE's place. This seem Right to today's people.
But, as my Poll show's Hamlin leading all the others combined. ?Is this really what everyone thinks the 1860 politicians would do? ?Is Hamlin really the best man for the Job?

Take it easy 2 -- Confirm Hamlin as the next VP, but extend Buchanan's term till a special election is held.
Any TL with Buchanan staying in Washington pass March 1861 almost guarantees the CSA.
Buchanan thought secession Illegal, but also thought the President didn't have the power to call out the Troops.
[Like to see the Buchanan voter explain his vote]

Stall -- If they wait till after the 4th - Buchanan's term runs out - the Pres Pro Term [or if he declines Speaker of the House], as per the Constitutional Provision for no President available, gets to be Acting President, till a new PE is elected.
[IIRC this happened once, The PE was not available, The speaker was sworn in as Acting Pres, Spent the day at home, doing daily chores, the next day the PE was sworn in and back to normal].

Reading the Constitution - I believe that the Founding Fathers wanted The House to be in Charge of Picking the President. It is the House that Counts the Electoral Votes.
Or picks the President if there are problems. And, This is a Mother of a Problem. SO..

Pass the Buck --
The Judges will hear a couple hours of oral arguments, retire to their chambers , Read the Federalist Papers, and come back and give the Job to the House.
However as this is not in the Constitution, the House is allowed to consider other candidates. This gets us Steward the runner up at the Republican Convention.
My Timeline My choice, Hence this Poll.

Yes, it's your timeline, but we can still discuss the questions the situation raises, can't we? It's not trolling; it's an interesting tangent. I just got a bit stream-of-consciousness there. Questions such as, who's oral-arguing before the Supreme Court: I mean who are the litigants? In Bush v. Gore you had two people claiming the right to be President (and yes it started out in Florida courts - technically they were claiming Florida's electoral votes, or at least seeking to have the counting continue....) Here, I'm not even clear who's arguing in front of the Court.

I'm not sure Hamlin's that obvious. I believe I read somewhere Lincoln had never even met him, certainly not before the election. Presidential candidates were much more "passive" in those days, because it was considered unseemly to campaign actively for that office. They didn't go to the party conventions, although everyone understood that Lincoln people and Seward people and so on were working the smoke-filled rooms.

It should also be noted that, when the President is elected by the House, each state gets one vote. And until March 4 (until this stuff was changed in FDR's day), it would be the House elected in 1858, not the one elected in November 1860, that was legally in office. I'm not sure what the party makeup of that House was. (Heck, even today, if there was an unresolved Presidential election, is it clear that the new House as opposed to the lame-duck one that votes?)

Sorry, stream-of-consciousness again. I'll go away now. And I haven't voted in your poll.

 

[Errnge]

i just thought President Hannibal Hamlin sounded badass

 

[Lord Grattan]

I An assuming for my TL that all 9 justices are in Washington, and take the case under emergency procedures

What case? What emergency procedures? The only legal case here would be one brought by Hamlin if he were denied the oportunity to execute the office of POTUS.

These Judges are being asked to decide something that is not [explicitly] in the Constitution.

Asked by who, and why and what are they being asked for, and on what legal grounds?

Punt -- This is not in the Constitution, so it is a state Matter and neither the Court or Congress has any say.

Take it easy -- Hamlin is the VPE, and automatically take the PE's place. This seem Right to today's people.
But, as my Poll show's Hamlin leading all the others combined. ?Is this really what everyone thinks the 1860 politicians would do? ?Is Hamlin really the best man for the Job?

Take it easy 2 -- Confirm Hamlin as the next VP, but extend Buchanan's term till a special election is held.
Any TL with Buchanan staying in Washington pass March 1861 almost guarantees the CSA.
Buchanan thought secession Illegal, but also thought the President didn't have the power to call out the Troops.
[Like to see the Buchanan voter explain his vote]

Stall -- If they wait till after the 4th - Buchanan's term runs out - the Pres Pro Term [or if he declines Speaker of the House], as per the Constitutional Provision for no President available, gets to be Acting President, till a new PE is elected.
[IIRC this happened once, The PE was not available, The speaker was sworn in as Acting Pres, Spent the day at home, doing daily chores, the next day the PE was sworn in and back to normal]..

Lincoln and Hamlin won the 1860 electoral college vote. Hamlin doesn't need to be confirmed as VP-elect, nor is there any legal question, given the Tyler & Fillmore precedents that as the President-elect has died Hamlin becomes President-elect.

Reading the Constitution - I believe that the Founding Fathers wanted The House to be in Charge of Picking the President. It is the House that Counts the Electoral Votes.
Or picks the President if there are problems. And, This is a Mother of a Problem. SO...

Congress did certify the electoral vote. Lincoln and Hamlin won. The 1860 election is over. Period. This is a question of presidential succession, not one of "good we get to choose who we want as President now."

Pass the Buck --
The Judges will hear a couple hours of oral arguments, retire to their chambers , Read the Federalist Papers, and come back and give the Job to the House.
However as this is not in the Constitution, the House is allowed to consider other candidates. This gets us Seward the runner up at the Republican Convention.
My Timeline My choice, Hence this Poll.

Yes, you can do some hand waving and take liberties political & legal realities in order to create any scenario you wish, as it is your TL. However, that won't make for a plausable story.


If you want to get Seward as POTUS on March 4, 1861, why not have Lincoln die after he wins the election (November 6) but long enough before the Electoral College members vote (December 17) so as to provide an opportunity for the Republican Party to name Seward as the party's replacement standard bearer. Lawsuits, political hijinx, harsh words, angry deeds and much, much more - a great TL.

 

[Sean Mulligan]

Buchanan doesn't have a chance, he was extremely unpopular and couldn't even get renominated by his own party.

 

[Errnge]

Buchanan doesn't have a chance, he was extremely unpopular and couldn't even get renominated by his own party.

what? how could you not renominate a man with such charisma

 

[cclittle]

Democrat Becomes President.

Since Fitzpatric becomes president anyway Democrats have no reson to act. In fact stall and prevent a quarem is more likely.

 

[DuQuense]

I An assuming for my TL that all 9 justices are in Washington, and take the case under emergency procedures

What case? What emergency procedures? The only legal case here would be one brought by Hamlin if he were denied the opportunity to execute the office of POTUS.

Steward - on the grounds that he was the runner up at the Republican Conference.
Breckenridge - on the grounds of being second in the electoral votes.

 

[Mikestone8]

Stall -- If they wait till after the 4th - Buchanan's term runs out - the Pres Pro Term [or if he declines Speaker of the House], as per the Constitutional Provision for no President available, gets to be Acting President, till a new PE is elected.

There is no "Constitutional provision" of this kind. The Consttution merely empowers Congress to provide for the case of simultaneous vacancy in the offices of President and Vice-President.

The President of the Senate and Speaker of the House were placed in line of succession by the Presidential Succession Act of 1792, which applied only to the case of both Presidency and Vice-Presidency falling vacant. But in this TL, the Vice-Presidency is not vacant. Hamlin was duly elected VP and is still alive, so the 1792 Act is inoperative.

 

[Lord Grattan]

Steward - on the grounds that he was the runner up at the Republican Conference.
Breckenridge - on the grounds of being second in the electoral votes.

Neither have legal standing as the legal question here would be presidential succession not the electoral college vote. In the scenario you laid out Hamlin is the duely elected and certified Vice President-elect. Upon the death of the duely elected and certified President-elect (4 days before assuming office), Lincoln, Hamlin became, as established by the Tyler & Fillmore precedents, President-elect. There will be much whooping and hollering, and perhaps some politicial posturing and a few acts of violence, but in the end (and w/o intervention by Supreme Court or the House of Representatives - for there is not legal cause for it) Hamlin becomes 16th POTUS on March 4, 1861. If somehow Hamlin is prevented from assuming the office of the presidency, then a lawsuit would be in order.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Hamlin -- in the instance that the leading man on a duly elected presidential ticket is killed in office or before he can serve, the best way to honor the election and the people's will is to choose his running mate.

 

[Lemon flavoured]

Hamlin -- in the instance that the leading man on a duly elected presidential ticket is killed in office or before he can serve, the best way to honor the election and the people's will is to choose his running mate.

This makes sense, but I think it's possibly plausible that one of the other candidates might sue, if only to create a specific precedent (IIRC, in the other two cases mentioned the President was already in office, even if not for long).