How Could the American Revolution have Turned "French"

Perhaps the plot to kidnap George III's son? Paine, who, of course, was a native Brit, possibly decides the time has come to strike out at the mother country, and kidnaps and executes the prince? Of course, there were the Tories, and persecution of them happened OTL, so it's not unimaginable for mass executions and tar-and-featherings to occur. I guess the "local aristocracy" to be replaced by "local loyalists" that Paine preaches against, saying they're part of the "foreign influence."


Historically, Paine opposed the execution of Louis XVI, so I don't think that he would be likely to support the type of terror you the op is talking about. Also, what would be the point of kidnapping and executing a British Prince? The French terror never did anything like that to any foreign royalty. The American Revolutionaries wanted independence not to overthrow the British government. They might hold the prince prisoner but they wouldn't execute him. They wanted to make the war to costly for Britain so the British would give up and recognize American independence but killing a British prince would enrage the British and make them more determined to win the war in America. It would also probably alienate France and other nations which were either allied to the American revolutionaries or just at war with Britain.
 
The whole dynamic of revolution was, IMO, to rid America of this unaccountable "foreign" influence rather than to radically overthrow the exisiting social order. Though of course they did do that, though as various PODs show they could have intorduced an American monarch or something alone those lines.

The Americans certainly did not consider the British "foreign". One of their grievances mentioned in the Declaration of Independence was that George III had used "foreign" troops from Germany, which clearly differentiated them from the non-foreign troops from Britain.
 
The American Revolutionaries wanted independence not to overthrow the British government.

Actually, in the 1760s, many did hope for an imperial-wide revolution, although presumably along the lines of a Glorious Revolution, with parliament grabbing power from the monarchy rather than anything violent.

But yes, at this point they'd long since given up on that.
 
I'm not sure it's possible for the ARW to go the way the French revolution did. Generally revolutions turn that nasty when there is no history of successful de facto constitutional change of any type and pressure on the system builds until it blows catastrophically. This isn't what happened in the ARW. The ARW was the last in a series of British civil wars and revolutions that brought incremental change bit by bit. There wasn't the pressure in the system for it to turn really nasty

The series of wars I mean in this case are:

The Wars of the Three Kingdoms, Glorious Revolution and subsequant wars, 1715 Jacobite Rebellion, 1745 Jacobite Rebellion, American Revolutionary War
 
What if a captured would-be traitor Benedict Arnold gives up some other significant "names" of traitors corresponding with the British in a futile attempt to save his own life. He goes to the hangman followed by those named and thus a cycle of accusation and execution follows...I'd have Charles Lee's name on that list...
 
The Americans certainly did not consider the British "foreign". One of their grievances mentioned in the Declaration of Independence was that George III had used "foreign" troops from Germany, which clearly differentiated them from the non-foreign troops from Britain.

Scotland. The Hessians weren't actually deployed at the time; it meant Scots, especially Gaels. This was explicit in earlier drafts, says Devine.

New perspectives, eh? :D
 
Scotland. The Hessians weren't actually deployed at the time; it meant Scots, especially Gaels. This was explicit in earlier drafts, says Devine.

New perspectives, eh? :D

The majority of Americans at the time understood as referring to the Hessians. I believe earlier drafts referred to "Scotch and foreign mercenaries", suggesting they were two groups.

Either way, my point about them being contrasted with the main British army stands. The earlier drafts indeed referred to "British brethren." The War of Independence was fought to avoid authoritarian tyranny, and independence was the best method, it wasn't a nationalist thing to escape "foreign influence", although the process resulted in a new nation.
 
Historically, Paine opposed the execution of Louis XVI, so I don't think that he would be likely to support the type of terror you the op is talking about. Also, what would be the point of kidnapping and executing a British Prince? The French terror never did anything like that to any foreign royalty. The American Revolutionaries wanted independence not to overthrow the British government. They might hold the prince prisoner but they wouldn't execute him. They wanted to make the war to costly for Britain so the British would give up and recognize American independence but killing a British prince would enrage the British and make them more determined to win the war in America. It would also probably alienate France and other nations which were either allied to the American revolutionaries or just at war with Britain.

Ah, very smart. Ja, I can see this point. I was just thinking out loud there. I still want to use Paine, though. Although, if it alienated France, that'd actually help me with what I want to accomplish.

I'm not sure it's possible for the ARW to go the way the French revolution did. Generally revolutions turn that nasty when there is no history of successful de facto constitutional change of any type and pressure on the system builds until it blows catastrophically. This isn't what happened in the ARW. The ARW was the last in a series of British civil wars and revolutions that brought incremental change bit by bit. There wasn't the pressure in the system for it to turn really nasty

The series of wars I mean in this case are:

The Wars of the Three Kingdoms, Glorious Revolution and subsequant wars, 1715 Jacobite Rebellion, 1745 Jacobite Rebellion, American Revolutionary War

In American King, that's exactlywhat happens; the British, instead of repealing some of the most hated laws, double down on the Colonies, and there is no positive change in 20 years. Plus, it's not insanely more violent in the beginning; I'm going to introduce a character to stand in for Washington that really changes things to get more brutal.

What if a captured would-be traitor Benedict Arnold gives up some other significant "names" of traitors corresponding with the British in a futile attempt to save his own life. He goes to the hangman followed by those named and thus a cycle of accusation and execution follows...I'd have Charles Lee's name on that list...

This is an interesting idea. Sort of like those first few spies that started the Red Scare.

Scotland. The Hessians weren't actually deployed at the time; it meant Scots, especially Gaels. This was explicit in earlier drafts, says Devine.

New perspectives, eh? :D

I know there was a large Scottish force present at the Battle of Brandywine. I didn't know they were considered foreign though; that's pretty shocking.
 
I know there was a large Scottish force present at the Battle of Brandywine. I didn't know they were considered foreign though; that's pretty shocking.

Remember, there was a very large literature in England portraying Scots as foreigners, and as agents of Jacobite-style tyranny for the Hanover regime (long before Scott, the English were confusing Highlander and Lowlander). So if we know that the American revolutionaries were starting out with some ideas from English dissenting whiggery (which is ironically a Scots word, but less ironically began as a deadly insult), it follows. Indeed, the pamphlets of John Wilkes were popular in America, I believe. It's just suited both parties to delete it from history. But you can read a nice concise study of it in Devine's excellent book To the ends of the earth, the first history to tackle our diaspora holistically.

It wasn't just Brandywine, either. Scots were a quarter of the officer-corps in America, which is much larger than our share of the British Isles population. And Scotland was unanimously loyalist in the petition-war back home. Not that there weren't those sympathetic to America in numbers not so much fewer than elsewhere, but the ability of the regime's patronage machine to completely silence them is worthy of note. There was no such success elsewhere, and some regions (like East Anglia where the colonists of New England were from) were almost as unanimous in calling for compromise and concession.

Another interesting thing is that, contrary to received ideas about Protestant and Catholic, the Irish got a much nicer looking at. The worries and goals of Grattan's Patriots in the context of the British Empire (which had only really gained that capital E in the previous decades) seemed to many Americans - and anxious Britons - to be analogous, while the Scots sat there making a fat sack of cash out of both of them. Which was kind of true, to be fair.

The majority of Americans at the time understood as referring to the Hessians. I believe earlier drafts referred to "Scotch and foreign mercenaries", suggesting they were two groups.

Scottish 'and other foreign mercenaries'. Devine, To the ends of the Earth, 136, citing a study of the development of the DoI text.

If we weren't foreign, why would we have been mercenaries? ;):p There is a rich literature of American Scottophobia from this time which can be found in the chapter 'In the land of the free' of Devine's book; probably more than there ever was about Hessians. The stage Scotsman was a recognised Anglo-American type, unlike the stage Hessian.

Either way, my point about them being contrasted with the main British army stands. The earlier drafts indeed referred to "British brethren." The War of Independence was fought to avoid authoritarian tyranny, and independence was the best method, it wasn't a nationalist thing to escape "foreign influence", although the process resulted in a new nation.

Naturally contradictory tendencies were at play, and indeed by bringing this up I'm highlighting the link between strands of American and English radical thought.
 
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