Keynes' Cruisers Volume 2

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Winestu

Don’t forget about the Allies’ land based air.

Did any of those guys have any night training that would be useful right now? Either way, come the dawn there will be ALOT of hunters in the air.

On another note, where is USS Alden right now? I only ask because it was Ernest Evans Command before he took over command of the USS Johnston. For some reason I was thinking about it earlier today.
 

sloreck

The Japanese BCs are going to be crushed like bugs - they may not even get a message off to Yamamoto with details on what they face. The two sets of big boys will be in range if each other about 45-60 minutes after the BCs start getting creamed. The Allied BBs will take some hurt, but except the Yamato & Mushashi the other Japanese heavies will be outranged and all on the very wrong end of fire control for a night fight.
 

Finbarr the Fair

Viper91 said:
Saratoga is gone and Lexington is going to the shipyard if she makes it, and a couple of light jobs where sunk earlier, but Enterprise, Yorktown, and USS Constellation(a fourth Yorktown class ship unique to this timeline) are still operational and have enough aircraft available to still do some significant damage if they can be given a viable target or targets to go after.

Even if the US and British battleships loose, they're going to still do significant damage to the Japanese, and soften them up for air strikes come morning, plus any submarines that can get a shot it.

I figure come dawn, after the surface action is over, the US carriers will find the Japanese and launch as many aircraft as possible, while the British will probably rest and wait for strikes later in the day, and give their pilots time to rest from the night strikes.
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Yes, ATM there are operational US carriers but they are more vulnerable to mission kills than their RN peers. There are obviously Japanese submarines and land based aircraft present in the area and further damage in this operation and subsequent ones are plausible.

As to the RN battleships, they are further from their own shipyards or maintenance facilities. While I'd be surprised if more than one was sunk in the forthcoming action the others being temporarily out of action seems possible. We'll see, I probably did exaggerate the possible outcome. It would be funny though to have an enforced combined fleet of this ilk. King would have a heart attack.

I think your analysis of the night actions and consequences is very good, let's see what Fester devises.

I presume Yamamoto can't back out even once his scout force is eliminated. He will probably think he has the decisive battle at hand and the last chance to win Japan a breathing space to negotiate an acceptable peace. Wrong thinking but all that's left to him.
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
If Yamamoto believes that the Allies seizing Makassar and setting up air and naval bases to further cut off oil flow from Borneo, he's going to believe it's a "do or die" situation to crush the beachhead. Even if he understood the full extent of the force arrayed against him, he might see this as the only opportunity to retain a foothold on this portion of Japan's fuel line. The proverbial "rock and a hard spot" situation.
 

steamboy

fester said:
Kupang Timor, 0011 January 3, 1943

The first of half a dozen Black Cats took off.
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giphy.gif
 

sloreck

IMHO in his heart of hearts Yamamoto realizes this is a desperation mission, a cavalry charge that hopes to break through by sheer force of will. He has essentially no direct air support, and limited at best air support from land based units. He faces both naval and land based air of significant strength, which can operate unmolested at night until it encounters ship board AA manually directed, and now can attack by day almost completely unhindered by CAP, the only fighter support being whatever land based happens to be around at the time. He probably is unaware of the radar directed fire control of the British and Americans, and will be subjected to reasonably accurate fire at ranges his fire control can't match at night - sure his guns can shoot that far, but splashing holes in the ocean does no good. If his ships maneuver too much, they lose cohesion, if they press forward Allied fire control is easier.

With the loss of his scouting force and his light forces severely cut down by losses and the need to escort cripples, even if some of his heavies break through, most of the Allied shipping has left the beach area, and much of what remains has a good shot at running away, even if slow, simply by scattering. Sure, best case he can bombard the forces ashore, but how much HE do his heavies have, and every hour they spend bombarding the shore they are exposed to air attack with no cover and little room to maneuver. Even if he "wins" he loses.
 

RyderWest

The Kido Butai is essentially gone, right? That means the US will roam the Pacific completely unmolested for potentially up to 44...

And yeah Yamamoto must realize hes running a suicide mission right? Even with the most capable battleships of the IJN in his hand, his force is facing the might of USN and RN naval and air power in a strait with no room to maneuver....
 

steamboy

In terms of raw balls to the wall gun power the two sides are pretty even. The disparity is because the IJN has a large number of heavy cruisers and these are well armed ships. (Do we have an OOB of the two sides in total?) and of course Yamato and Musashi and there's 2 x 16-inch gunned ships there as well as 6 ships with 14-inch guns, 3 of those have 12 x 14-inch guns and there's a 4th one of that group with the same armament but more badly damaged or withdrawing, and 2 x 14 inch gunned ships with 8 guns each.

Against this the RN has 3 x ships with 10 x 14-inch guns and the USN has 3 x ships with 9 x 16-inch guns.

But guns does not tell all the story.

The RN/USN ships are far more modern than the IJN line save Yamato and Musashi, as save the two Nagato's the other IJN ships are all WW1 dreadnoughts that were modernized but they are not immune to their own guns and have inefficient layouts and older armour schemes, the Kongo's are very vulnerable.
Even the Nagato's are outclassed, as in essence they are a case of 'What if we put 16-inch guns on a Queen Elizabeth class battleship?' and whilst potent ships, they are older, have weaker armour and worse protection than the Allied ships.

But, in theory, at the moment there's 10 battleships to 6. And even with radar assisted gunnery at long range to cause some damage, the radar gunnery of the time isn't accurate enough to really pound the IJN ships to thin them out in time.
 

RyderWest

So the Forward Japanese Force broke off with heavy casualties, is every Allied ship that can fire guns or torps heading towards the battlesite or a few are staying back?
 

Butchpfd

Finbarr the Fair said:
Yes, ATM there are operational US carriers but they are more vulnerable to mission kills than their RN peers. There are obviously Japanese submarines and land based aircraft present in the area and further damage in this operation and subsequent ones are plausible.

As to the RN battleships, they are further from their own shipyards or maintenance facilities. While I'd be surprised if more than one was sunk in the forthcoming action the others being temporarily out of action seems possible. We'll see, I probably did exaggerate the possible outcome. It would be funny though to have an enforced combined fleet of this ilk. King would have a heart attack.

I think your analysis of the night actions and consequences is very good, let's see what Fester devises.

I presume Yamamoto can't back out even once his scout force is eliminated. He will probably think he has the decisive battle at hand and the last chance to win Japan a breathing space to negotiate an acceptable peace. Wrong thinking but all that's left to him.
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Several British Carriers and Battleships were repaired in U.S yards,including Bremerton. Pearl has a dry dock capable of holding anything in the Pacific.
 
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