Like in Olden Days: The Rise of Heathen Europe

As a person of Germanic ancestry this TL makes me very happy. And it's timed perfectly for that Charlemagne expansion to Crusader Kings II that just came out! :D

When this TL came out, I was playing CK2: Charlemagne as Sigurd and I married my daughter to Widukind and had a nice little romp around Saxony and Frisia. It was fun. I'm anxiously waiting for more from this TL.
 
Merry Christmas and a Happy Yuletide bitches

“Women in Religion”
A Thesis by Teresa DiCarlo
19 April 2011
(English Translation)


Pt. 3
The Northern Religion

Compared to the historically patriarchal systems of Judeo-Christian religions that have dominated the Mediterranean basin, the polytheistic religions of the North offer quite a different perspective on how women can participate, and indeed lead in religion. In the religion known by its own adherents as “The Old Custom”, women perform a fundamental role as priestesses and advisors. Godesses are matrons of wisdom (Frigg, Vor), childbirth and fertility (Freyja, Fulla, Gerthr), farming (Gefjon), the underworld (Hel), healing (Eir), war (Freyja, Hretha, Zisa), youth (Ithunn), motherhood (Nanna), marriage (Sif, Lofn), love (Freyja, Sjofn), and oaths (Var). Added to this is the fact that many prominent natural features are personified as female figures, such as the Sun, the East, Night, and the Earth.

Given such prestige within the pantheon, it should be no surprise that women in the Northern Religion hold a very important position in such societies. This tradition extends back into ancient times. The Romans recounted how the Cimbri before battle would have an elderly priestess clad in white would sacrifice prisoners of war and sprinkle their blood to prophecy the outcome. Julius Caesar, in writing about the Suebi led by Ariovistus:

“Among the Germans it was the custom for their matrons to pronounce from lots and divination whether it was expedient that the battle should be engaged in or not.”
...


Chaette, Frankish Empire
782 A.D.


The Frankish army mustered to repel Widukind was a mighty one. For a moment as Tonna watched it approach, she wondered if they had made a mistake. Though King Karl the Great was in the East, the Franks did not lack for leadership. The Dukes and Counts that led the army amassed a force that outnumbered the Saxons by almost a thousand men.

She was no tactician, and she never claimed otherwise. All she could do was trust in the gods, and do her part. On the hill behind Widukind’s forces, she and the other volva stood and waited with their wands and spindles ready. The omens had favored a battle on this day, but still, omens could be misinterpreted. Tonna had seen such things happen before, and she was certain they would happen again. Loki the trickster might be watching with mischievous intent.

This part of the Frankish Empire, to her, greatly resembled Saxony. There were more hills, and the woods were a little less dense, but in all it was still quite different, especially compared to her homeland. A vale of grey clouds cast over the sky blocked out the sun, and she could feel the coming of winter upon her flushed cheeks.

In the distance through a valley, she could see the oncoming columns of the enemy. Like a shimmering serpent, the Franks inched closer. Their long banners whipped in the wind. Tonna wondered if they knew they were being watched. She looked to the head of the Saxon army, Widukind, astride a large black stallion. As if he sensed her eyes upon him in despite the insurmountable distance between them, he looked back at her. It was hard to tell, they were so far apart and he wore a helmet that obscured much of his face, but she thought she saw him nod.

The time had come.

Tonna let her voice loose upon the air, sang as if it was not within her control. Soon, the voices of the other volva, most of them much older than her, joined in. They began to spin their thread violently. Almost drowning out the song, the Saxon army let out a terrible warcry.

Arrows flew through the air and hailed down upon the Frankish army like rain. She could see the black snake open its mouth, the startled and hurried attempt to form a line. And then, with a surge of energy, like the ebb of the ocean, the Saxon army moved in. It only took minutes for the weight of the Saxons to push them completely down the hill, into the valley, and crashing into the Franks.
 
Last edited:
Sorry this update is a lot shorter than my usual, but it said everything I wanted it to, and I couldn't really think of adding more without it being superfluous. Brevity and all that.

Hope you enjoy and Merry Xmas!
 
Probably not since the Druids had been entirely wiped out pretty much everywhere at the very latest a few centuries before this TL

Considering the role that Irish missionaries and monks had in the ministry of Gaul during the Merovingian period of Gaul as well as in early missionary work in Saxony, I think that the chance of a Druidic revival in Ireland is a bit unlikely during this period. I think a sixth century POD is the latest you could conceivably have a pagan revival in Ireland.
 
Considering the role that Irish missionaries and monks had in the ministry of Gaul during the Merovingian period of Gaul as well as in early missionary work in Saxony, I think that the chance of a Druidic revival in Ireland is a bit unlikely during this period. I think a sixth century POD is the latest you could conceivably have a pagan revival in Ireland.
I hope that a centralized Irish Kingdom/colonial empire Timeline will soon be made. Not enough Celtic TLs around here.
 
How far will the Saxons go - will they settle for driving the Franks out of their homeland, or will they try to conquer the whole Frankish empire? The latter might well exceed their grasp.
 
How far will the Saxons go - will they settle for driving the Franks out of their homeland, or will they try to conquer the whole Frankish empire? The latter might well exceed their grasp.

It certainly would! So far, no actual event has really been that drastically different than OTL, it's more that the way these events came about has changed, which will inevitably alter the course of history. This battle in Hesse (I tried my best to render the transition between Chatti and Hesse) happened OTL, resulting in the deaths of several Frankish nobles.

I think in the short term, the Saxons want the Franks out of their territory (as do the Frisians), and they will likely try to establish pagan-friendly Germanic kingdoms, like in Hesse for example, maybe Thuringia, though I'm not sure. I'm sure they would like to eventually drive the Franks back to the Rhine, but how capable they would be of this remains to be seen.
 
I'm curious how this is going to knock on with other Pagan religions.

And what, if any, will be the reaction of Islam?
 
I'm curious how this is going to knock on with other Pagan religions.

And what, if any, will be the reaction of Islam?

I've speculated more on the latter than the former. The nature of the persistence of paganism is basically conservative; I think if we look at the trend of world history there are deep reasons why as the general level of civilization and its integration on larger and deeper scales rises, the kinds of religious traditions we call "pagan" tend to weaken and vanish in the face of more centralized, single-cause religions--monotheism, but also more abstractly philosophical traditions like Buddhism or Taoism. I suppose we might look at India or Japan for counterexamples, but both of these places have tended to evolve their still robustly pagan beliefs to include or be dissolved, as it were, in a high philosophical perspective that basically agrees with the hard-line monotheists that ultimately the divine is One. So Japan has a heavy layer of Buddhism over the casual acceptance of the idea of lots of little spirits, and they don't make much of their traditional great gods because they see them as manifestations of a deeper spirit; the Hindu tradition too has developed a refined sort of pantheism too. In a sense if you have dozens, hundreds, or thousands of spirt-beings they sort of blur into one general divinity. Whereas when we think of classical pagan religions we have a relatively manageable pantheon of a dozen or so great gods who are very distinct from each other--but in reality, when these gods were deeply believed in, it was more a matter of different localities being more devoted to just a few of them, and the functions attributed to one in one place overlap those attributed to another in another place. Plus of course different clans of people, even ones closely related to other clans and interacting with them a lot, would each have their own focuses. So the potential for Hindu or Shintoist type blurring of thousands of them is already there. It is the actuality of more and more people in more and more complex civilizations with more division of labor hence more social detail interacting with more and more other such clusters of people on larger and larger scales that makes the philosophical mind step back and question, who are the gods really? Are they all real but some more powerful than others; are some of them fake? Are they all just expressions of something deeper and more profound? And so on. You get philosophers asking awkward questions in the light of ordinary people meeting others who look at things differently than they were raised to, and thus the quest for a "higher" religion, a challenge that the Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists and so on rose to in diverse ways that more or less address these questions.

To be sure there is also the politics of religion; it is very important in society and so the ruling classes take an interest in it and it is quite possible to argue that the forms of different religions are mainly shaped by the demands of these rulers--then one steps back and sees that the common masses of the ruled have something to say back to these rulers they can't get away with saying to their faces individually--religion becomes a deep forum of the class struggle; it has to offer something to those masses and the fact that successful religions do so helps explain which ones dominate. Because of the ethical content of religions its own leaders take a deep interest in social issues and become political figures of some power in their own right. The evolution of religions then has many deep connections to the evolution of human societies in general.

So keeping a strong "pagan" religion going in the face of such robust mass-society challengers as Christianity and Islam is a tough challenge which is why this TL is so interesting--how are they going to do it? Will they resist change and thus make the pagan sphere more and more isolated and backward, cut off from contact as the Christians surround them? Or will they enlist allies? Or will they instead develop Nordic paganism into something comparably as sophisticated as Christianity, and also something as prone to win converts?

Enlisting allies addresses your question I think; would the Nordics decide that say Slavic pagans in the eastern Baltic are better neighbors than the Christians, and by a combination of philosophical inspiration and offering them useful worldly power to ally with, inspire a parallel revival and development among the Slavs? Or will they simply see them as people to subjugate and assimilate or be subjugated and assimilated by? If a cordial alliance based on the fact that they are all non-Christians together facing a collective existential threat ensues, how will the different traditions see each other--will they tend to find and agree on equivalences between the Nordic and Slavic pantheons (very likely harking back, more or less accurately, to primordial versions of each which once long ago were one and the same, deep in the Indo-European past when Germans and Slavs shared the same common ancestors) and thus go down the same path the Classical Greeks and Romans did? Will this undermine the deep folk faith with lots of philosophical cold water, or will Errnge be able to invent a new Great Religion that somehow keeps the polytheism robust in the face of the tendency to merge all gods into One? Or will they instead become more and more uncomfortable with the differences between their traditions the more seriously they take their folk religions, thus splitting the Pagan sphere into bitter rivals?

I've spoken more about Islam before. I suppose it is possible that a number of emirs and perhaps even caliphs might decide that helping these northlander pagans against their Christian foes is in their political interest--but every time they do so, they'd be guiltily aware they are consorting with outright idolators against heretical and misguided Nazarenes who are nevertheless still People of the Book; in their foolish way, the Christians are after all followers of Allah too, even if they reject his greatest Prophet and believe absurd and offensive things about another one (Jesus). So I think there would always be some serious tension in their relations with the Nordics; they are glad they aren't Nazarenes but exasperated that they don't therefore embrace Islam as the true religion Allah has given to men to follow. Non-Muslim People of the Book are supposed to be an improvement over paganism, from a Muslim point of view, and consistently championing the latter over the former will always cast shadows of guilt and doubt. The Christians, especially the Roman Rite, will annoy them enough that they might well be able to convince themselves Allah has sent the Nordics to chastise and humble the Romans and therefore they can assist them--but the long-term interest of the Muslims in these alliances is that the Nordic peoples convert to Islam, and as long as the Pagan spirt is strong among the Nordics they will resent that, and the Muslims will resent their stubborn "folly."

I suppose that over the centuries, various Muslim sages will find virtues and inspirations for Muslims to consider among the heathens, and Nordic sages might find ways to profess common ground with the Muslims without giving in to the demand they profess there is one God only, and Mohammed is is greatest prophet, ways that perhaps even the Muslims can live with. But again this would be an exercise in creative religion-building and various developments along those lines OTL--the Sikhs, the Ba'hais, for instance--suggest that is a very rocky road to travel in either direction on.

Basically if the Pagans can make mutual peace with Muslims, why can't they do so as well with their immediate Christian neighbors? The clearest answer to that is it boils down to geopolitics, to the enemy of my enemy being something sort of like a friend--and insofar as any Pagan-Muslim accord is founded on that negative and worldly factor, it will be a sour note to both of them, however compelling the strategic motive is.

Certainly it would be easier for such a grand alliance to happen if the two parties are widely separated, so the pagans aren't directly contending with the Muslims over the same territory.

Suppose for instance the Nordics were to go a-Viking, and thus come into the Islamic world (as they did OTL) and there learn things that so enhance their seamanship (further even than OTL) so that they sail down the Atlantic coast of Africa, and there find in West Africa and southward another bunch of pagan peoples--ones whom the Muslims have been trying for some time to missionize and convert. But the Vikings find that they can instead relate better to the pagan Africans, the feeling is mutual and the Vikings wind up stimulating a pagan revival among the West Africans--now Islamic and Pagan proselytization are running into each other head-on!

I don't think that's a particularly likely scenario to be sure, unless Ernnge hits upon some kind of philosophical skeleton key that enables very different paganist traditions to inspire and strengthen each other without undermining the faith in their very different pantheons that keeps the pagans pagan and not merely the inventors of yet another universalizing religion to dissolve all the gods in.

I went on to say more stuff but it's really more in response to a canon post Ernnge made some time ago so I'm moving all that there.
 
“Women in Religion”
A Thesis by Teresa DiCarlo
19 April 2011
(English Translation)


Pt. 3
The Northern Religion

Compared to the historically patriarchal systems of Judeo-Christian religions that have dominated the Mediterranean basin, the polytheistic religions of the North offer quite a different perspective on how women can participate, and indeed lead in religion. In the religion known by its own adherents as “The Old Custom”, women perform a fundamental role as priestesses and advisors. Godesses are matrons of wisdom (Frigg, Vor), childbirth and fertility (Freyja, Fulla, Gerthr), farming (Gefjon), the underworld (Hel), healing (Eir), war (Freyja, Hretha, Zisa), youth (Ithunn), motherhood (Nanna), marriage (Sif, Lofn), love (Freyja, Sjofn), and oaths (Var). Added to this is the fact that many prominent natural features are personified as female figures, such as the Sun, the East, Night, and the Earth.

Given such prestige within the pantheon, it should be no surprise that women in the Northern Religion hold a very important position in such societies. This tradition extends back into ancient times. The Romans recounted how the Cimbri before battle would have an elderly priestess clad in white would sacrifice prisoners of war and sprinkle their blood to prophecy the outcome. Julius Caesar, in writing about the Suebi led by Ariovistus:

“Among the Germans it was the custom for their matrons to pronounce from lots and divination whether it was expedient that the battle should be engaged in or not.”
...


...

Actually I don't see the Nordic tradition that is being affirmed by these ATL developments as being much more feminist than their Christian foes. Both side have places where women are more or less acknowledged and honored; both are fundamentally patriarchal though.

Some years ago, most of a decade ago now and counting, when I lived in Santa Rosa, California, I was a member of the Unitarian Universalist congregation there and when we had a guest "minister" who was Wiccan, I could affirm my affinity for modern Neo-Paganism to some extent. But the sort of Neo-Paganism that attracts me does not affirm the actual existence of real pagan gods or spiritual powers even--I'm more of a techno-pagan in the sense that I think the gods are expressions of the human psyche. The neopagan writer who has inspired me the most is Starhawk, and on the day I actually got to see Starhawk in person at a gathering in Pasadena (this was a very long time ago, in early 1989 in fact) after she spoke and I was mingling around the diverse more or less neopagan community gathered there, I met people who disagreed with her precisely because her perspective pretty much discounted the supposed actual existence of such powers independent of the human mind. Starhawk's writings, the way I read them anyway, tended to emphasize "magic" as "liberation psychology;" that the mythic consciousness of mainstream society as I grew up in is based on a particular kind of society that she and I agree is problematic, what she called "the dominator society." From that point of view, Nordic and Baltic and Slavic and perhaps even West African paganisms as these Nordics of the timeline are trying to preserve is pretty heavily turned toward that same sort of patriarchal, militaristic dominator society as the Christians and Muslims are. Certainly the Nordics have their spaces for women and also for aspects of social diversity that the Christians of the time sought to suppress--but the Catholics (and Muslims, for that matter) also had their own ways of incorporating and interacting with the counter-trends in the human psyche that also strive to include the antithesis to the dominator society. The balance between them is not so much a matter of whether they believe in one God or many gods; it is more a matter of what kind of society they are building. I don't see that the Nordics are going to be particularly less militaristic and male-dominated than the Christians are, on the whole.

So the sort of paganism I see as posing a really deep challenge to the Frankish-Roman Church of this era would be much more feminist, much more "witchy" and much less a matter of one god of war dueling another. If Europe were to produce a feminist paganism that opposed Christendom on a much deeper philosophical level than these Saxons do, I can see that evolving into an alternative Great Religion that would be a deeply alternative force in history. And it might be able to jump from one pagan pantheon to another, confirming the "existence" of all the gods while uniting the diverse believers in a strong web, thus making it capable of spreading far from the particular region where it starts without subsuming them all into one monolithic church.

I don't see that sort of thing happening in this timeline, not so much yet anyway, nor any reason to foresee it here. At best the Nordics might keep a space open for the degree that woman's religion has kept itself open there thus far, but I don't see it shaping the whole movement.
 
Actually I don't see the Nordic tradition that is being affirmed by these ATL developments as being much more feminist than their Christian foes. Both side have places where women are more or less acknowledged and honored; both are fundamentally patriarchal though.

Some years ago, most of a decade ago now and counting, when I lived in Santa Rosa, California, I was a member of the Unitarian Universalist congregation there and when we had a guest "minister" who was Wiccan, I could affirm my affinity for modern Neo-Paganism to some extent. But the sort of Neo-Paganism that attracts me does not affirm the actual existence of real pagan gods or spiritual powers even--I'm more of a techno-pagan in the sense that I think the gods are expressions of the human psyche. The neopagan writer who has inspired me the most is Starhawk, and on the day I actually got to see Starhawk in person at a gathering in Pasadena (this was a very long time ago, in early 1989 in fact) after she spoke and I was mingling around the diverse more or less neopagan community gathered there, I met people who disagreed with her precisely because her perspective pretty much discounted the supposed actual existence of such powers independent of the human mind. Starhawk's writings, the way I read them anyway, tended to emphasize "magic" as "liberation psychology;" that the mythic consciousness of mainstream society as I grew up in is based on a particular kind of society that she and I agree is problematic, what she called "the dominator society." From that point of view, Nordic and Baltic and Slavic and perhaps even West African paganisms as these Nordics of the timeline are trying to preserve is pretty heavily turned toward that same sort of patriarchal, militaristic dominator society as the Christians and Muslims are. Certainly the Nordics have their spaces for women and also for aspects of social diversity that the Christians of the time sought to suppress--but the Catholics (and Muslims, for that matter) also had their own ways of incorporating and interacting with the counter-trends in the human psyche that also strive to include the antithesis to the dominator society. The balance between them is not so much a matter of whether they believe in one God or many gods; it is more a matter of what kind of society they are building. I don't see that the Nordics are going to be particularly less militaristic and male-dominated than the Christians are, on the whole.

So the sort of paganism I see as posing a really deep challenge to the Frankish-Roman Church of this era would be much more feminist, much more "witchy" and much less a matter of one god of war dueling another. If Europe were to produce a feminist paganism that opposed Christendom on a much deeper philosophical level than these Saxons do, I can see that evolving into an alternative Great Religion that would be a deeply alternative force in history. And it might be able to jump from one pagan pantheon to another, confirming the "existence" of all the gods while uniting the diverse believers in a strong web, thus making it capable of spreading far from the particular region where it starts without subsuming them all into one monolithic church.

I don't see that sort of thing happening in this timeline, not so much yet anyway, nor any reason to foresee it here. At best the Nordics might keep a space open for the degree that woman's religion has kept itself open there thus far, but I don't see it shaping the whole movement.

Really? Priestesses, shield-maidens, divorce laws, anti-rape laws, and property laws that to the modern eye look like leaps and bounds ahead of contemporary Christian laws don't make you think that Norse paganism is more female-friendly than Medieval Christianity? (I say Medieval Christianity for a reason). Yes, they are both patriarchal, but one seems significantly more towards the egalitarian end of the spectrum than the other. Contemporary Christianity only really offered convents to women as an option insofar as inclusion. Yes, there was a veneration of Mary and female saints, but on the day-to-day practice, women were a fairly marginalized group compared to the Norse pagan women.

And you're right in that the main clash between Christianity and Paganism will, for paganism to last, have to stem more from a cultural standpoint and less of a "look at our diety(s)" standpoint. Norse paganism will have to evolve in some ways, but anyone who thinks Christianity didn't evolve needs to read a book :p The inclusion of women will be a very important part of that for the masses, much the same as how in the early Church it was the inclusion of women that led so many to convert to Christianity to begin with! Things have obviously changed culturally in Christianity since the fall of Rome in the West, and I think for your average layperson this distinction will matter quite a lot.

The society will be Patriarchal in that it has a pyramid-shape to it. It will not be in that in such a pyramid, men are always a step above a woman. That wasn't Nordic custom. Nordic women during the pagan period wielded quite a lot of power and sway within their society. They were the advisors in military campaigns, they had a much more elevated (and some might say equal if not higher than the male) position within religion, Nordic custom protected women and gave women rights that were unheard of in Christian society at the time. The idea that a woman could divorce her husband and retain her own property, that a free woman could charge another free man with rape and such a man would be punished--- these are things that Nordic paganism would offer as something certainly to win over women. More inclusion.

It won't be the "shaping movement" within paganism. But it is important enough for some student at a university a millennia later to write her thesis about it ;)
 
She looked to the head of the Saxon army, Widukind, astride a large white stallion.

Sorry for the random bump, but wasn't Widukind in possession of a black stallion until his baptism, when Charlemagne gave him a white stallion to ride as a symbolic gesture of his conversion? The white stallion on red field (the flag of Lower-Saxony) is a modern representation of this, being changed from the black stallion on yellow, supposedly Widukind's personal banner during his rebellion.
 
Top