Charles is healthier and younger, so here he would not have the OTL reasons for refusing the match and instead push his son.What makes him accept and not push forward his widowed son?
Charles is healthier and younger, so here he would not have the OTL reasons for refusing the match and instead push his son.What makes him accept and not push forward his widowed son?
In 1547 Charles V has no reason for pushing forward his barely twenty years old son forward. Isabella had died eight years earlier while his last illegitimate son, John, was born just at the beginning of that year, meaning who Philip is both too young and too needed in Spain for being sent to marry Mary while Ferdinand is still in mourning for Anne, who has died few months earlier, while Charles is still able to generate children and is the husband who Mary wanted. Plus marrying Mary would consent him to establish his main seat in his beloved Netherlands, leaving the government of Spain to Philip (who will need to remarry, but to either Maria of Viseu or Marguerite of France. Or to Christina of Denmark, but this match is far less likely than any of the other two)What makes him accept and not push forward his widowed son?
Charles is healthier and younger, so here he would not have the OTL reasons for refusing the match and instead push his son.
I agree with this. There is also the fact Charles V would probably be better choice for Mary I than his own son, who didn't deserves Mary I at all, both OTL and ATL. I am wondering about what would happen to Elizabeth I in this situation.In 1547 Charles V has no reason for pushing forward his barely twenty years old son forward. Isabella had died eight years earlier while his last illegitimate son, John, was born just at the beginning of that year, meaning who Philip is both too young and too needed in Spain for being sent to marry Mary while Ferdinand is still in mourning for Anne, who has died few months earlier, while Charles is still able to generate children and is the husband who Mary wanted. Plus marrying Mary would consent him to establish his main seat in his beloved Netherlands, leaving the government of Spain to Philip (who will need to remarry, but to either Maria of Viseu or Marguerite of France. Or to Christina of Denmark, but this match is far less likely than any of the other two)
Well I think who they had a too big age gap and Mary was too old for having the marriage work (in the same way in which Philip and Maria Manuela were both too young for having a good marriage) as Philip OTL was a good husband for both Elisabeth and Anna.I agree with this. There is also the fact Charles V would probably be better choice for Mary I than his own son, who didn't deserves Mary I at all, both OTL and ATL. I am wondering about what would happen to Elizabeth I in this situation.
Thing I'm wondering is how Edward VII of England also being Duke of Burgundy would change European politics. Especially if his reproductive history is better than Henry VIII...I agree with this. There is also the fact Charles V would probably be better choice for Mary I than his own son, who didn't deserves Mary I at all, both OTL and ATL. I am wondering about what would happen to Elizabeth I in this situation.
Autocorrect and its errors, I will fix themSurely it's Maria Manuela?
That's true.Well I think who they had a too big age gap and Mary was too old for having the marriage work (in the same way in which Philip and Maria Manuela were both too young for having a good marriage) as Philip OTL was a good husband for both Elisabeth and Anna.
He had bigger age gaps with his successive wives, what are you on aboutWell I think who they had a too big age gap
I think that @isabella meant that Mary I was too old for Philip II. There is a reason why the marriage where a bride is much older than a groom is rare, after all.He had bigger age gaps with his successive wives, what are you on about
Who Philip had good reasons for being unhappy with being married off to an old maid... If he had married someone closer to his age and more attractive (Maria of Viseu, Christina of Denmark, Elizabeth Tudor) he would undoubtedly be a much better husband.He had bigger age gaps with his successive wives, what are you on about
Exactly… and most of times in which the bride is significantly older marriages ended badlyI think that @isabella meant that Mary I was too old for Philip II. There is a reason why the marriage where a bride is much older than a groom is rare, after all.
Nice tree, I am happy to having inspired itAn idea inspired by a conversation with @isabella :
Catalina of Aragon (1485-1536) 1m: 1501 Arthur, Prince of Wales (1486-1502); 2m: 1507 [1] Zygmunt I, King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania (1467-1548)
[2m.] Zygmunt Ferdynand (1507-1507)[2m.] Isabella [2] (b.1508) m: 1530 [3] Johann, Duke of Saxony (b.1498)[2m.] Jan II, King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania (b.1509) m: 1528 Marie of Austria [4] (b.1505)Stillborn Son [5] (1529)Jadwiga (1530-1545)Katarzyna (b.1532)Ludwik (1535-1538)Jan Zygmunt (b.1537)Anna (b.1538)[2m.] Jadwiga (b.1512) m: 1530 Magnus III, Duke of Mecklenburg (b.1509)[2m.] Zygmunt, Duke of Głogów [6] (b.1514)[2m.] Zofia (b.1516) m: 1535 Joachim II, Elector of Brandenburg (b.1505)[1] unsure of the POD, but either Henry VII remarries or Edmund Tudor survives, thus negating the need for Henry VIII to marry as speedily as possible (so he marries Eleonore of Austria instead. How does Catalina end up in Poland? Thinking she arrives in Castile while Philipp the Handsome is still alive, but after Margarethe of Austria has turned down a marriage with Zygmunt Stary (OTL Maximilian proposed the widowed Juana la Loca as well). Either way, Catalina winds up as a sort of "Habsburg proxy bride" (Fernando el Catolico would have no real reason to object to it because it both allows him to play nice with Max as well as get one of his agents (I mean daughters) to upset the Habsburg apple cart)
[2] because while Jadwiga for the oldest daughter in Poland is "traditional", do we really think Catalina wouldn't argue for her mom's name? The woman could be stubborn as a mule. She can sweeten the pot by pointing out that Jadwiga's daughter's name was "Elisabeth"
[3] Like OTL, Catalina is probably hoping her daughter will be able to marry Karl V, and is sorely disappointed when he marries elsewhere. She's not Bona Sforza, so I suspect she will not say a "king at any price" to the point of "wasting" her daughter. The son of Georg the Bearded- after his Protestant-leaning Hessian wife has a tragic fall from a horse- is the man settled on
[4] Catalina persuades Zygmunt to agree to this marriage post-Mohacs (rather than waiting for a daughter of Ferdinand and Anna). Marie is not particularly pleased by the idea of remarriage, but her aunt manages to convince her.
[5] I know that it's always posited that Marie was barren because she and Lajos had no children, but Emperor Ferdinand and Anna were likewise married since 1521 and their first child was only born in 1526 (and Anna was two years older than Marie)
[6] Zygmunt Stary held this title OTL IIRC
@Jan Olbracht @Zygmunt Stary @Awkwardvulture
Isabella is old enough to marry Duke of Mazovia. Janusz III died in 1526, so she could still marry Johann of Saxony as second husband anyway (unless they have a son, then Izabela stays in Mazovia as regent).An idea inspired by a conversation with @isabella :
Catalina of Aragon (1485-1536) 1m: 1501 Arthur, Prince of Wales (1486-1502); 2m: 1507 [1] Zygmunt I, King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania (1467-1548)
[2m.] Zygmunt Ferdynand (1507-1507)[2m.] Isabella [2] (b.1508) m: 1530 [3] Johann, Duke of Saxony (b.1498)[2m.] Jan II, King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania (b.1509) m: 1528 Marie of Austria [4] (b.1505)Stillborn Son [5] (1529)Jadwiga (1530-1545)Katarzyna (b.1532)Ludwik (1535-1538)Jan Zygmunt (b.1537)Anna (b.1538)[2m.] Jadwiga (b.1512) m: 1530 Magnus III, Duke of Mecklenburg (b.1509)[2m.] Zygmunt, Duke of Głogów [6] (b.1514)[2m.] Zofia (b.1516) m: 1535 Joachim II, Elector of Brandenburg (b.1505)[1] unsure of the POD, but either Henry VII remarries or Edmund Tudor survives, thus negating the need for Henry VIII to marry as speedily as possible (so he marries Eleonore of Austria instead. How does Catalina end up in Poland? Thinking she arrives in Castile while Philipp the Handsome is still alive, but after Margarethe of Austria has turned down a marriage with Zygmunt Stary (OTL Maximilian proposed the widowed Juana la Loca as well). Either way, Catalina winds up as a sort of "Habsburg proxy bride" (Fernando el Catolico would have no real reason to object to it because it both allows him to play nice with Max as well as get one of his agents (I mean daughters) to upset the Habsburg apple cart)
[2] because while Jadwiga for the oldest daughter in Poland is "traditional", do we really think Catalina wouldn't argue for her mom's name? The woman could be stubborn as a mule. She can sweeten the pot by pointing out that Jadwiga's daughter's name was "Elisabeth"
[3] Like OTL, Catalina is probably hoping her daughter will be able to marry Karl V, and is sorely disappointed when he marries elsewhere. She's not Bona Sforza, so I suspect she will not say a "king at any price" to the point of "wasting" her daughter. The son of Georg the Bearded- after his Protestant-leaning Hessian wife has a tragic fall from a horse- is the man settled on
[4] Catalina persuades Zygmunt to agree to this marriage post-Mohacs (rather than waiting for a daughter of Ferdinand and Anna). Marie is not particularly pleased by the idea of remarriage, but her aunt manages to convince her.
[5] I know that it's always posited that Marie was barren because she and Lajos had no children, but Emperor Ferdinand and Anna were likewise married since 1521 and their first child was only born in 1526 (and Anna was two years older than Marie)
[6] Zygmunt Stary held this title OTL IIRC
@Jan Olbracht @Zygmunt Stary @Awkwardvulture
Zygmunt Stary held this title OTL IIRC
He could give him duchy (but rather Opole/Racibórz than Głogów) in exchange for something (unpaid dowry perhaps).Held when he was his brother's governor, doubtful that Ferdinand would let Sigismund's son bear it.
what if Lajos bestows it on the boy? Could Ferdinand revoke it?Held when he was his brother's governor, doubtful that Ferdinand would let Sigismund's son bear it.
would Katherine agree to that, though? Also, would Katherine block Albrecht of Prussia from marrying Anna of Mazovia like Bona did?Isabella is old enough to marry Duke of Mazovia. Janusz III died in 1526, so she could still marry Johann of Saxony as second husband anyway (unless they have a son, then Izabela stays in Mazovia as regent).