MacArthur and Eisenhower swap theaters.

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

Alright, so I did look this up, as I had figured it was probably asked before.
I got two threads, but both were a couple of post long, so I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.

What if, with whatever POD is needed, MacArthur is Supreme Commander in Europe, while Eisenhower is in charge of the Pacific theater?

Judging by the other threads, there seems to be some consensus that Mac in Europe doesn't end well, but no one really had anything to say about Eisenhower in the Pacific.

 

[dduff442]

Oh dear God no. Pretty much sums up the opinions of Roosevelt, Marshall et al.

 

[sharlin]

When Mac and the Generals in the West meet in London for the first time.

Can you imagine the screaming hate orb that patton and monty would summon from the combined force of their ego's to battle the titan that was mac's ego?

 

[Dan Reilly The Great]

If Mac was not in command in the Pacific, he wouldn't be commander in Europe. SACEUR needed to be someone who could manage the different personalities(mainly Monty and DeGaul) also running the show out there. Assuming that someone makes the stupid enough decision to put Macarthur in such a position, He probably would have been fired not long after.

 

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

If Mac was not in command in the Pacific, he wouldn't be commander in Europe. SACEUR needed to be someone who could manage the different personalities(mainly Monty and DeGaul) also running the show out there. Assuming that someone makes the stupid enough decision to put Macarthur in such a position, He probably would have been fired not long after.

I figured.

What about Eisenhower in Asia, though?

 

[Mike Stearns]

Can you imagine the screaming hate orb that patton and monty would summon from the combined force of their ego's to battle the titan that was mac's ego?

So, Patton and Monty would actually agree on something?

 

[Zheng He]

I figured.

What about Eisenhower in Asia, though?

Then the Southwest Pacific probably becomes a true backwater because Ike probably wouldn't advocate for the theater the way MacArthur did. This would be good for the USN and the Central Pacific drive because that would become the primary line of operation instead having two competing lines of operation like we had OTL that ultimately met in the Philippines.

Ike's true genius was his ability to handle the difficult personalities and competing interests that he had to deal with in the ETO. That doesn't exist in the SWPAC.

 

[Cockroach]

A serious administrative bungle leaves "Bug-out" Doug as supreme commander of the Axis forces in Europe... he promptly makes Hitler look both like a military genius and sane and level headed.

 

[DoomBunny]

Mac and Monty will:

A) Try and murder each other, they are both egotists

B) Actually murder each other, they are both egotists with ready access to firearms

C) Start WW3 while WW2 is still ongoing, because shooting Generals tends to be considered an act of war

D) Sit down to tea and cake and realise that actually, they've got a lot in common (aside from skill), and that really they should just pick on Dempsey, because noone likes that guy

As for Ike going to the Pacific, he might be useful in Stillwell's place, dealing with the Chinese and Commonwealth.

 

[sharlin]

And this is just Monty and Mac...don't forget you've got the yob who has access to an army. Aka Patton to deal with.

 

[TFSmith121]

Not well; however:

What if, with whatever POD is needed, MacArthur is Supreme Commander in Europe, while Eisenhower is in charge of the Pacific theater?

Judging by the other threads, there seems to be some consensus that Mac in Europe doesn't end well, but no one really had anything to say about Eisenhower in the Pacific.

DDE actually had a fair amount of Asian experience in his career; he had served in the Philippines in the 1930s, trying to get the Commonwealth Army up and running - so from that perspective, he had some useful background. However, given his infantry and armor background, plus his staff and planning experience, an assignment somewhere in the ETO made much more sense. His record as commander of multiple Allied theaters, and in coalition warfare generally, is without compare; only Marshall and (presumably) John Dill appear to have managed anything equivalent, and Dill was not going to get SHAEF, obviously.

DMA actually had an excellent combat record in France in WW I, so there's that; any criticisms based on assignments in 1917-18 is therefore (presumably) muted; in addition, his previous service as CSA would have prepared him well for the responsibilities of theater command. Having said that, his record at managing coalition warfare in an Allied theater was poor; SW Pacific, as it was structured in 1942, was not a good fit. However, given that the only other senior US officer with the nucleus of a staff available for Australia was Hart, DMA got the assignment. Upon reflection, Hart would probably have been a better choice - he at least had the experience of ABDA behind him, and it is (essentially) a maritime theater. Give Hart an Australian (Blamey, presumably) as a deputy, and ready to move up to theater once Papua and the eastern edge of NE New Guinea has been cleared (Buna-Gona and then Lae-Salamaua, so presumably 1943 or so) and the entire theater would have run more smoothly and been a better fit for the realities of what Allied forces were available for operations there.

In some ways, the best fit for MacArthur in mid-1942 would have been the CBI; he was imperious enough, and enough of a Republican darling, that he may actually have been able to get the reality of Chiang's China across at the highest levels in Washington, on both sides of the aisle. Plus, I''d expect Mac and Wavell would have gotten along; similar generation.

That also frees up Stilwell, who despite his near unique ability to organize and get the Chinese to fight in an Allied theater, was poorly used in the CBI; given his record in WW I with the French, and his experience with amphibious warfare planning, the ETO/MTO would have been a better use of his abilities.

My .2 cents.

Best,

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

In some ways, the best fit for MacArthur in mid-1942 would have been the CBI; he was imperious enough, and enough of a Republican darling, that he may actually have been able to get the reality of Chiang's China across at the highest levels in Washington, on both sides of the aisle. Plus, I''d expect Mac and Wavell would have gotten along; similar generation.

That also frees up Stilwell, who despite his near unique ability to organize and get the Chinese to fight in an Allied theater, was poorly used in the CBI; given his record in WW I with the French, and his experience with amphibious warfare planning, the ETO/MTO would have been a better use of his abilities.
,

Probablly leaves Krueger planning retirement while army commander in the western US through 1945. Eichelberger probablly goes to Europe/Africa in 1943 and works up to army or army group command.

 

[Thoresby]

CBI was always going to be the most Commonwealth heavy bit of the Pacific theatre in fact it was the one area where Commonwealth forces were the majority. That's why Mountbatten ended up in charge so sending MacArthur to get bossed around by a Brit would be a terrible idea. Almost as bad as sending him to Europe to boss the Britain and France around. Really he could only work in a US only theatre.

 

[Saphroneth]

CBI was always going to be the most Commonwealth heavy bit of the Pacific theatre in fact it was the one area where Commonwealth forces were the majority. That's why Mountbatten ended up in charge so sending MacArthur to get bossed around by a Brit would be a terrible idea. Almost as bad as sending him to Europe to boss the Britain and France around. Really he could only work in a US only theatre.

Can we get him put in charge of Hawaii defensive forces?
Or perhaps Iceland?
...
What about swapping him and that idiot general who came up with the repple-depple? Who could do more damage in that slot?

 

[Thoresby]

But he was too senior and too high profile to get fobbed off with some sinecure. He had the political clout to demand and get a high profile theatre command. And he had the character to stuff it up if there was any need for diplomacy.

 

[Saphroneth]

But he was too senior and too high profile to get fobbed off with some sinecure. He had the political clout to demand and get a high profile theatre command. And he had the character to stuff it up if there was any need for diplomacy.

I'm starting to think he deserved the Order of the Rising Sun!
Oh, wait. He did get it.

 

[zert]

Too bad that Dougie did not get bumped off as many WW2 timelines do. Could have saved many a soldier and sailor. Better yet let him kick the bucket even before 12/7/41.

 

[TFSmith121]

Well, I figure Eichelberger would have gone to the SW Pacific with I Corps

Probablly leaves Krueger planning retirement while army commander in the western US through 1945. Eichelberger probablly goes to Europe/Africa in 1943 and works up to army or army group command.

Well, I figure Eichelberger would have gone to the SW Pacific with I Corps, and then ended up in the Central Pacific drive; at some point, the US would need an army headquarter's (Holland Smith's "Expeditionary Force" HQ would not cut it for Luzon, obviously) so I presume an army headquarters (should have been the 4th) would be sent west in 1943-44; Krueger or Richardson would seem the likely contenders. DeWitt and Grunert were both pretty senior, as was Lear. Drum blew his chance.

Drum in the CBI is an potential POD, though...

Best,

 

[TFSmith121]

The thing is, the "CBI" WAS a US theater; it was

CBI was always going to be the most Commonwealth heavy bit of the Pacific theatre in fact it was the one area where Commonwealth forces were the majority. That's why Mountbatten ended up in charge so sending MacArthur to get bossed around by a Brit would be a terrible idea. Almost as bad as sending him to Europe to boss the Britain and France around. Really he could only work in a US only theatre.

The thing is, the "CBI" WAS a US theater; it was subordinate to SEAC, which was the British-dominated "Allied" theater.

CBI was a horse of a different color; part service command, part logistics and training base area, part "regional" headquarters for a US force serving in an Allied theater - there's a reason Stilwell had so many problems; most of them stemmed from the fact he was (almost) simultaneously tasked with being:

1) Chiang's chief of staff in the alleged "China Theater";
2) Deputy (Allied) commander of SEAC;
3) CG of the US-only CBI;
4) US Lend-Lease chief in the theater (for the Chinese and the British-Indians);
5) De facto corps commander (NCAC);
6) De facto infantry center CG and AG for the Chinese forces in India...

and a bunch of other responsibilities at various times, including trying to get the Ledo Road built and dealing with both the 10th AND 14th air forces.

It's actually pretty amazing he did as well as he did.

Best,

 

[TFSmith121]

China is the best possible "kicked upstairs" destination for Mac;

But he was too senior and too high profile to get fobbed off with some sinecure. He had the political clout to demand and get a high profile theatre command. And he had the character to stuff it up if there was any need for diplomacy.

China is the best possible "kicked upstairs" destination for Mac.

Who better to compete with the generalissimo, the viceroy, the various and sundry British field marshals and air chief marshals and admirals than the only bonafide American field marshal?

Come on, it's perfect...and who knows? If anyone could get the word out about how dysfunctional the KMT was, presumably it would be MacArthur.

After all, only Nixon...

Best,