New World Order: Marine Corps

[Burton K Wheeler]

@Matt
@Matt
@Matt

For background, POD is around 1990. The most significant change is that Saddam Hussein is killed in the immediate aftermath of Operation Desert Storm, necessitating a full-scale occupation of Iraq by US, British, and French forces. The occupation is much less bloody and chaotic than the 2003-present Iraq war, but it makes the Clinton administration aware that it can't reap a peace dividend at the level it did OTL. All U.S. services are pressed to streamline as much as possible and maintain a high-low mix of capacities like that endorsed by Elmo Zumwalt.

Here was the original thread: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/an-alternate-new-world-order-beta.261010/

The real background is that this what if addresses military reform concepts from the 1990s. In the mid-2000's, as the Army was radically reorganizing, I thought about Rumsfeld's famous "you go to war with the Army you have" statement and wondered what a plausible way would have been to have a military that actually was ready for the challenges of the 2001-2013 period. I'd read Douglas MacGregor and all those guys, and so I started working on an imaginary perfect Army, then evolved to imagine how it could have come to be.

I'm posting stuff that's peripheral to the main body of work because I'm never happy with stuff that directly addresses my areas of expertise. You know how occasionally we get a thread that's like "WI higher-quality barrel linings for HMS Malta"? This is basically the same type of thread except for the 1990's. If you don't know what a LAAD battery is or how many the Marines had in 1989 and have today, it's not going to be of much interest. There will, maybe some day, be a thread that's a bit more narrative explaining what happens after the fall of Saddam Hussein in 1991.

This is what that world's US Marine Corps looks like in 2015.


Part IV in a series:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/new-world-order-navy-major-surface-combatants.439585/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/air-wing-for-an-american-cvl-post-cold-war.428535/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/a-helicopter-for-the-usmc.428328/

The background for the TL is repeated verbatim in all three previous threads, no need to repeat it.

The biggest and most obvious difference we see in the Marine Corps is the repeal of the law requiring three division-wing teams. The 3rd MEF was sort of half-assed in the Cold War and a shadow of nothing in the OTL 1990's.

Instead, the Marines commit to six wartime MEFs and nine MEUs (the equivalent of three divisions and three wings in smaller packages). One MEU apiece rotates through the Indian Ocean/Persian Gulf, western Pacific, and Mediterranean/Atlantic, associated with 4-ship ESGs.

Three MEBs are standing headquarters: 3rd MEB on Guam (Okinawa?), 6th MEB aboard Rota (Sicily?), and 5th on Bahrain. They have minimal organic forces and normally control deployed Marines. In wartime, they will fall in on MPSRON equipment sets.

1st MEB and 2nd MEB are on the West and East coasts, rotating between global readiness. They can either be airlifted or sail with amphibs from San Diego or Norfolk. To be clear, these MEBs are also just headquarters and will be task organized in wartime. If flown in, they would most likely take command of a MEU initially and assemble their GCE, ACE, and LCE over time.

4th MEB in the USMCR trains for the Norway prepositioned mission.

1st MEF, 2nd MEF, and 4th MEF in the USMCR can form the nucleus of a JTF. The Division and Wing headquarters within the MEFs are configured as force providers, not tactical headquarters.

Marine Corps organization:

Infantry:

Regiments are organized either for MEB or MEU missions. MEB Regiments have three three-company infantry battalions and a light armor battalion with three LAR companies, a Marine Personnel Carrier Company (the MPC is a turretless LAV that replaces the AAV), and an EFSS battery with 8 120 mm EFSS LAVs. The 1st Marines are laid out in detail as an example, the other MEB regiments will be the same. The four MEB regiments rotate on a seven-month schedule between training, global readiness (ready to deploy with 1st or 2nd MEB), deployment, and refit.

MEU regiments lack the light armored battalion and instead have one separate LAR company and one MPC company.

Two other regiments take the place of the FAST companies and Sea Marines detachments on an expanded basis. These regiments will be described in more detail under the Marine Security Forces section.

1st Marines (Camp Pendleton, CA)
1/1 Marines
2/1 Marines
3/1 Marines
1st Light Armored Battalion

2nd Marines (Camp Lejeune, NC) MEB Mission

3rd Marines (Hawaii) MEU mission

4th Marines (San Diego, CA) Marine Security Forces

5th Marines (Camp Pendleton, CA) MEU Mission

6th Marines (Camp Lejeune, NC) MEU Mission

7th Marines (29 Palms, CA) MEB Mission

8th Marines (Camp Lejeune, NC) MEB Mission

9th Marines (Norfolk, VA) Marine Security Forces

23rd Marines (USMCR) Configured as a MEB battalion but with four rifle companies per battalion, not three

24th Marines (USMCR) Marine Security Forces

25th Marines (USMCR) As 23rd Marines

Artillery:

FA regiments are a “Divarty” headquarters which serve as the MEF Fire Support Element and oversee training of artillery battalions. The Marines have batteries I labelled as "Caesar", which use something similar to Caesar or ATMOS but using MTVR components and the M777 Howitzer (6 tubes), EFSS batteries with 6 light towed EFSS 120 mm mortar systems, HIMARS batteries with 3 3-system sections, and Expeditionary batteries with 4 Caesar and 4 EFSS that support the MEU. The HIMARS battalion can operate in general support of the MEF.

10th Marines Lejeune
1/10 Lejeune (2 CAESAR, 1 EFSS)
2/10 Lejeune (2 CAESAR, 1 EFSS)
3/10 Lejeune (3 Expeditionary)
5/10 Lejeune (3 HIMARS)

11th Marines Pendleton
1/11 Pendleton (2 CAESAR, 1 EFSS)
2/11 Pendleton (3 Expeditionary)
3/11 29 Palms (2 CAESAR, 1 EFSS)
5/11 Pendleton (4 HIMARS)
1/12 Hawaii (3 Expeditionary)

14th Marines USMCR
2/14 USMCR (2 CAESAR, 1 EFSS)
3/14 USMCR (2 CAESAR, 1 EFSS)
5/14 USMCR (4 HIMARS)


The Marines have revived the Engineer regiments as a common training and administrative headquarters for engineer battalions in both the GCE and LCE. The MEU has an engineer company that coordinates both the combat engineer platoon in the GCE and the engineer support platoon in the LCE, the MEB has a battalion, and in wartime, the regiment would serve as a headquarters element for all MEF engineering.

17th Marines (Pendleton) (3 battalions)

-1st Battalion, 17th Marines
Engineer Company (Combat) –Pendleton
Mobility Assault Company –Pendleton
Bridge Company –Pendleton
Engineer Support Company –Pendleton
Engineer Company (Construction) –Pendleton
Bulk Fuel Company—Pendleton

-2nd Battalion, 17th Marines
3 Engineer Companies (Expeditionary) –Pendleton

-3rd Battalion, 17th Marines
Engineer Company (Combat) –29 Palms
Engineer Support Company –29 Palms

-1st Battalion, 19th Marines
3 Engineer Company (Expeditionary) –Hawaii


18th Marines (Lejeune) (2 battalions)

-1st Battalion/18th Marines
2 Engineer Company (Combat) –Lejeune
Mobility Assault Company –Lejeune
Bridge Company—Lejeune

-2nd Battalion/18th Marines
Bulk Fuel Company –Lejeune
Engineer Company (Construction)—Lejeune
2 Engineer Support Companies –Lejeune

-3rd Battalion/18th Marines
3 Engineer Companies (Expeditionary)—Lejeune

Move all Bridge and Bulk Fuel companies to Reserve?

20th Marines (USMCR) (3 battalions)
5 Engineer Company (Combat)
2 Mobility Assault Company
2 Engineer Support Company
2 Engineer Company (Construction)
3 Bridge cos
3 Bulk Fuel cos

Tanks (1 plt/BLT, 1 co/RCT) 9 total companies, 7/2 (+2 in USMCR) AT-Scout plt/bn (LAV?)
1st Tanks (29 Palms) 4 companies, scout/AT co
2nd Tanks (Lejeune) 3 companies, scout/AT co
3rd Tanks (USMCR) 3 companies, scout/AT co
4th Tanks (USMCR) 3 companies, scout/AT co


CE battalions can all act as MEB headquarters battalions or in GS of the MEF:

1st Information Group (Pendleton)
1st Radio Battalion (Pendleton)
1st Intelligence Battalion (Pendleton)
9th Communications Battalion (Pendleton)
1st Recon Battalion (Pendleton) 3 Battalion Recon Companies, 1 Deep Recon Company

2nd Information Group (Lejeune)
2nd Radio Battalion (Lejeune)
2nd Intelligence Battalion (Lejeune)
8th Communications Battalion
2nd Recon Battalion (Lejeune) 3 Battalion Recon Companies, 1 Deep Recon Company

4th Information Group (USMCR)
4th Radio Battalion (USMCR)
4th Intelligence Battalion (USMCR)
6th Communications Battalion (USMCR)
3rd Law Enforcement Battalion (USMCR): 4 MP companies
4th Law Enforcement Battalion (USMCR): 4 MP companies

LCE:
One CLR associated with each MEB.
CLR-3 (Hawaii), CLR-5 (Pendleton), and CLR-6 (Lejeune) each have three CLBs which support MEUs
CLR-1 (Pendleton) and CLR-2 (Lejeune) each contain two CLBs which provide direct support to RCTs and one Transportation Support Battalion with truck and landing support elements. CLR-4 in the USMCR has two CLBs and 4 TSBs [these TSBs would support the prepositioned MEBS as needed).
CLR-15 (Pendleton), CLR-25 (Lejeune), and CLR-45 (USMCR) provide general support to the MEF. They have medical, dental, supply, and maintenance battalions as well as combat logistics companies at air bases.

MP companies in LCE at Pendleton, Hawaii, Lejeune

Marine Aviation and the structure of MAGTFs will be laid out in subsequent posts

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

Marine Aviation:

9 HMH 12 per (108) CH-53K 2 USMCR
9 HMMA 18 per (162) AH-60 Sea Hawk 2 USMCR
21 HMM 12 per (252) CH-92 Super Hawk 4 USMCR
4 VMA 18 per (72) A-10M 1 USMCR
5 VMA 18 per (90) AV-8B
3 VMAQ 5 per (15) EF-18G
10 VMFA 12 per (120) F-18D 1 USMCR
4 VMFA(AW) 12 per (48) A-6F
6 VMGR 12 per (72) KC-130J 1 USMCR


I could possibly replace some of the HMM with a VMM containing V-22s, which would carry FAST Marines.

The VMAs with A-10s are associated with Norway and the prepositioned MEBs, the AV-8s are associated with the amphibious MEBs and MEUs
Honestly, I could probably just call it 9 AV-8 squadrons.

One VMGR detachment is deployed with each of the standing MEBs


[still to be done, figure out the MAG structure and layout]


Air Defense:

LAV-AD/Stinger Platoon, SLAMRAAM Platoon per MEU
LAV-AD/Stinger platoon per LAR battalion, 1/
SLAMRAAM/Stinger battery/MAG

1st LAAD Battalion (Hawaii) 1 LAV-AD, 1 SLAMRAAM
3rd LAAD Battalion (Pendleton) 2 LAV-AD batteries, 3 SLAMRAAM batteries
2nd LAAD Battalion (Lejeune) 2 LAV-AD batteries, 3 SLAMRAAM batteries,
4th LAAD battalion (USMCR) (2 SLAMRAAM, 1 LAV-AD)

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

MARSOC, in this timeline, was brought online to bridge the capabilities gap between SOCOM and the USMC. Each MAGTF has, in addition to the Command Element, ACE, GCE, and LCE, a Special Operations Combat Element provided to the MAGTF by SOCOM. In OTL, the MEU has a SOLE with a O-5 commander, E8/9 senior NCO, two intelligence, and two signal personnel, in addition to a MSOC with four 14-man MSOTs and a robust O-4 commanded headquarters. The SOCEs I describe below are built off that model.

The Marines have seven Marine Special Operations Units, commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel and roughly equivalent to the ANGLICO/Force Recon "companies" which were actually miniature battalions. The MSOUs are initially formed by redesignating the ANGLICO and Force Recon companies and cross-leveling their personnel. Each MSOU has two MSOT-Bs, a 10-20 man command element commanded by a major and equivalent to the ANGLICO SALT, and four (expanding to six over time) MSOT-As, a 14-16 man element commanded by a captain. The MSOT-A has two or three JTACs in it and is basically two Force Recon teams plus a headquarters. There are Marine Special Operations Groups on each coast, each controlling MSOUs and with a Logistics Company, Signal Company, Intelligence Company, and Support Company (EOD, dog teams, parachute riggers, and other special troops). An MSOG with four more MSOUs and support companies exists in the USMC reserve.

Lastly, a Marine-led O-6 commanded Joint Special Recon Unit under JSOC exists at Quantico with a stated mission of developing concepts for special reconnaissance and operational preparation of the battlefield. Its equal distance between units that may or may not exist at Little Creek and Fort Belvoir is probably just a coincidence.

In this TL, there are seven active duty Special Forces groups, which are smaller than OTL's five, and eight SEAL teams. The MSOUs are regionally aligned, like the SF Groups. Each MSOU exchanges 1 O-4 and 5 E-7/E-8 personnel with one SFG and one SEAL team, meaning that there is one NSW and one SF NCO per MSOT-B and one officer and three NCOs at the MSOU. In addition to the (existing in OTL) Marines on exchange to the Rangers and Army SOAR, the MAGTF has an institutional understanding of how SOF operates and how to integrate USMC forces into SOF operations. Special Forces and SEAL-qualified Marines are also an asset to MARSOC when they return from exchange.

The SOCE for a MEU is normally a MSOT-B task organized with logistics, signal, intelligence, and support troops, as well as Army SOF Civil Affairs (4-12) and PSYOP (3-6) personnel. It can command and control any mix of MARSOC and NSW platoons, normally three or four. MSOT-B's can also control MARSOC teams as part of a SOTF or liason element with foreign militaries.

The SOCE for a MEB is a MSOU, with enablers and an Army PSYOP detachment and Civil Affairs Company. The MSOU can serve as a SOTF as well.

The SOCE for a MEF is a MSOG, with an Army Reserve PSYOP battalion and Civil Affairs Group in support. The MSOG can also form the nucleus of a CJSOTF.

Essentially, instead of being a sideshow with no mission like OTL, MARSOC in this timeline is intended as the glue that integrates SOF with the MAGTF and allows special Marine capabilities . MARSOC operators will be expected to spend their entire career as SOF Marines, while enablers will rotate out after three-five years to bring their expertise back to the fleet.


The Marine Security Forces Command is a new two-star command at Quantico.
Subordinate to it are the 4th and 9th Marines, the Marine Security Guard Battalion (embassy Marines), and CBIRF (if CBIRF isn't just disbanded).

4th and 9th Marines are an expansion of the Marine Corps Security Forces Regiment. Each has three battalions of four three-platoon companies. Platoons are similar to FAST platoons but with a deputy platoon leader. Three battalions rotate their companies through the standing MEBs (one company deployed, one company ready, one company training, one company refitting), one platoon deploys with each MEU and one with each CSG, and a battalion covers SOUTHCOM response and security at GTMO.

One thing I haven't thought about is aviation for these Marines. The V-22 would be a perfect fit for the forward deployed security companies and the carriers, but six total squadrons seems like a small buy and also like it might jeopardize Marine helicopter replacements.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

MAGTFs and landing concepts

MEU CE (~140 Marines and Sailors)
Signal detachment
MI detachment
Battalion Recon Platoon
Radio battalion/CEMA detachment: MEWSS LAV
MP Platoon


MEU GCE: ~1200 Marines and Sailors

Infantry Battalion Reinforced
Co A: Air Assault
Co B: Mechanized
Co C: Small boats (18 CRRC)
Weapons Co: 8 TOW, 6 MG, 8 dismounted Javelin (14 HMMWV)
Mortar platoon: 8 81mm, 67 Marines
Scout/Sniper platoon:

Artillery Battery: 4 CAESAR, 4 ammunition tender MTVR, 4 EFSS 120mm

HIMARS/MML detachment: 3 HIMARS, 3 tender (2&2?)

LAV detachment: 6 (platoon) – 20 (company)

MPC detachment: 22 MPC (larger than LAV)

Tank detachment: 4 M1A1

Combat engineer detachment:


MEU ACE:

HMM Reinforced
12 H-92 (MH-72 Super Hawk)
6 AH-60 Seahawk (M230 chain gun in chin, M134 door guns can rotate forward for strafing runs, wing mounts for Hellfire, rockets, gun pod) Carries 6-8 troops. Air refuellable.
4 CH-53K
VMA det w/6 AV-8B

SHORAD Platoon (4 LAV w/Blazer turret)
ADM Platoon (4 SLAMRAAM launcher HMMWV)


MEU LCE

CLB
2 Reverse Osmosis Water Purification Unit
1 LMT 3000 water purification unit
4 Tractor, Rubber Tire, Articulated Steering
2 TX51-19M Rough Terrain Forklift
3 D7 bulldozer
1 Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement dump truck
4 Mk48 Logistics Vehicle System
7 500 gallon water containers

Engineer Company headquarters, Engineer Support detachment, EOD team


MEU SOCE ~100 Special Operations Personnel (part of Theater Special Operations Command)


Notional MEB:

Command Element:
Headquarters battalion (MEF CE battalion tasked)
Signal Company
MI Company
Radio Company (CEMA)
MP Company
Battalion Recon Company

Regimental Combat Team:
3 Infantry Battalions
Light Armor Battalion (3 LAR companies, one MPC company, one LAV-EFSS battery, one LAV-AD platoon from the LAAD battalion)
Artillery Battalion with 2 CAESAR batteries, 1 EFSS battery, and one attached HIMARS battery
Tank company or battalion
Combat engineer company

Reinforced MAG:
3 HMM with 36 MH-92
2 VMFA with 24 F/A-18D
1 HMH with 12 CH-53
1 HMMA with 18 AH-60
1 VMA with 18 AV-8B or A-10

1 SLAMRAAM battery
1 MALS
1 MWSS

Combat Logistics Regiment
Engineer Battalion with Engineer support company

Marine Special Operations Unit (part of Theater Special Operations Command)


The MEF Commander can either direct MEBs and MEUs directly or form his own GCE, ACE, and LCE.

Normally, the MEF commander has one each deputy commanding general for ground maneuver, air, and logistics instead of divisions/wings/logistics groups. There is also a one-star fire support coordinator responsible for air, ground, and joint fires. The MEF's direct subordinates will normally include the engineer regiment, artillery regiment, and information group commanders, as well as a coordinating relationship with the MSOG commander.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

I'm trying to put my notes down here in a coherent fashion, please ask if you have any questions about the concept of operations I'm laying down here. This is a USMC of roughly 180,000, with a lot of the savings hopefully coming from the streamlining of headquarters echelon and things like elimination of the division headquarters battalions

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

And I didn't have time to break down the way landings are supposed to work, so that will have to wait.

Short version: There is no STOM concept. Landing takes place via LCAC, LCU, helicopters, and Mike Boats (from the MPSRON). As you can see, the MEU is slightly larger than OTL and will probably require a second cargo ship in addition to the LHD, LPD, and LSD. The ESGs primarily support MEUs, with MEB missions being secondary and no more than 1 MEB being expected to land at a time. We have the OTL concept of a MEU doing initial forced entry and scaling up to a MEB, as well.

Any questions, things I need to clarify, things I left out?

 

[Fred the Great]

Any questions, things I need to clarify, things I left out?

I just don't see the point of all this, but I guess it might become apparent in a story? It seems like an appendix being posted upfront.

 

[Edward IX]

@Burton K Wheeler no question but as someone who apart of 24 MEU at the time, thanks for sharing the hell out of me.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

I just don't see the point of all this, but I guess it might become apparent in a story? It seems like an appendix being posted upfront.

That is, unfortunately, basically what it is.

For background, POD is around 1990. The most significant change is that Saddam Hussein is killed in the immediate aftermath of Operation Desert Storm, necessitating a full-scale occupation of Iraq by US, British, and French forces. The occupation is much less bloody and chaotic than the 2003-present Iraq war, but it makes the Clinton administration aware that it can't reap a peace dividend at the level it did OTL. All U.S. services are pressed to streamline as much as possible and maintain a high-low mix of capacities like that endorsed by Elmo Zumwalt.

Here was the original thread: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/an-alternate-new-world-order-beta.261010/

Unfortunately it's as much an appendix as this thread.

The real background is that this what if addresses military reform concepts from the 1990s. In the mid-2000's, as the Army was radically reorganizing, I thought about Rumsfeld's famous "you go to war with the Army you have" statement and wondered what a plausible way would have been to have a military that actually was ready for the challenges of the 2001-2013 period. I'd read Douglas MacGregor and all those guys, and so I started working on an imaginary perfect Army, then evolved to imagine how it could have come to be.

I'm posting stuff that's peripheral to the main body of work because I'm never happy with stuff that directly addresses my areas of expertise. You know how occasionally we get a thread that's like "WI higher-quality barrel linings for HMS Malta"? This is basically the same type of thread except for the 1990's. If you don't know what a LAAD battery is or how many the Marines had in 1989 and have today, it's not going to be of much interest. There will, maybe some day, be a thread that's a bit more narrative explaining what happens after the fall of Saddam Hussein in 1991. This is what that world's US Marine Corps looks like in 2015.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

@Burton K Wheeler no question but as someone who apart of 24 MEU at the time, thanks for sharing the hell out of me.

24th MEU is rotating through Med floats in 2015, with 2/6 Marines as the GCE. The biggest difference you'd notice is more LAVs and artillery tubes in your MEU. If you were an infantryman, you'd probably have done your initial tour in 6th Marines, left the fleet for additional duties, then come back to a rotational regiment.

What was your MOS?

 

[Edward IX]

I was a 5811 (MP). I started with MWSS 271 (Cherry Point) then 2/8 at Lejeune. I did Dessert Storm and then Somalia. @Burton K Wheeler

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

I was a 5811 (MP). I started with MWSS 271 (Cherry Point) then 2/8 at Lejeune. I did Dessert Storm and then Somalia. @Burton K Wheeler

In this TL, MPs are moved out of the wing at some point in the 1990’s, probably just after your time (it happened OTL, just a bit later). I haven’t decided if I want active duty law enforcement battalions as per OTL or if it would be better to leverage the expertise of the Reserves. Either way, active duty MPs will be part of the MEU command element, providing security for ashore elements or working with the landing support platoon.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

I just don't see the point of all this, but I guess it might become apparent in a story? It seems like an appendix being posted upfront.

Amen

 

[brown24navy]

@Burton K Wheeler why not add another ship to the MEU element for the extra forces like another LHD, LHA, LSD or even an update LST. You could even add another rifle company since a Marine battalion can expand to include an extra rifle company.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

@Burton K Wheeler why not add another ship to the MEU element for the extra forces like another LHD, LHA, LSD or even an update LST. You could even add another rifle company since a Marine battalion can expand to include an extra rifle company.

That’s the part I didn’t have time to lay out in detail today. I am thinking a four-ship MEU, but probably not a LST, more likely a stripped-down LSD.

As for a fourth rifle company, I considered it. That’s how MEUs operates in the Cold War. I ultimately decided that I couldn’t quite make it work. As per OTL, the Marine battalion can add a company, and I’d includ space in the ARG for it.

Amen

I’ll create a main thread tomorrow for this to be an appendix to.

 

[Edward IX]

@Burton K Wheeler I agree with where you are going with this, so good job!

I freely admit that when I got orders to Camp Lejeune. I so wanted to assigned to base command. If you were assigned to base, you got to do more police duties like traffic stops on base, you were called on to answer calls to base housing or work with NCIS.

So much of your military experience is where you end up. For instance, I loved being with the Wing or my last duty station I was on Coronado island in San Diego harbour, it was like being in paradise. I asked to reenlist, I said yes if I could stay in Coronado. They said no sorry, we have other plans for you. Those plans? Drill Instructors school. I said no. I should have just been thankful I was offered reenlist, because this was at the height of the Clinton draw down.

 

[Fred the Great]

That is, unfortunately, basically what it is.

Thanks for explaining it, I just think it's a little like you have it arse backwards, but if it leads to either interesting discussion or another work of fiction, then I can only encourage you. It's just it reads much more like an information dump that isn't really encouraging of the first. Does that make sense?

If you don't know what a LAAD battery is or how many the Marines had in 1989 and have today, it's not going to be of much interest.

Or even if you do have a reasonable idea about the answers to those questions, as many of us likely do, it might not of much interest if it doesn't facilitate a discussion, is what I'm trying to say.

There will, maybe some day, be a thread that's a bit more narrative explaining what happens after the fall of Saddam Hussein in 1991. This is what that world's US Marine Corps looks like in 2015.

That'd be great, but you could also just edit it right back, posit the scenario, and say what you believe would / could change (as opposed to posting a full order of battle), with invitations to others to comment on both your thinking and on their own ideas.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

That’s the part I didn’t have time to lay out in detail today. I am thinking a four-ship MEU, but probably not a LST, more likely a stripped-down LSD.

Well one solution would be a new generation of amphibious cargo ships ala the Charleston LKAs. Though if you really wanted a well deck not sure how you would strip down a Harpers Ferry or Whidbey Island, I wouldn't want to touch the defense suite if you are carrying ~500 marines, you kind of need all those cranes for landing operations, aren't much in the way of electronics to move, no hangar, and the things already cost under 350m in 1995 dollars

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

Fred the Great made me realize that I should lay the appendix type stuff out in a better format

http://newworldorder.referata.com/wiki/Main_Page

I'll put all these ugly awkward appendix posts in there from now on and lay stuff out a bit more narratively.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

So let's talk about getting Marines ashore. After all, without that they're not Marines.

Talking about the OTL 1990's here:

Both MEU BLTs and MEB RCTs normally have an air-inserted company or battalion, mechanized (with AAVs) company or battalion, and the third echelon, in the MEU, is equipped with Zodiac-style small boats whereas in the MEB it has...dunno.

As of the 1990's, the main ship-to-shore connectors are the LCAC hovercraft and the Landing Craft (Utility) or LCU. There were also Vietnam-era "Mike boats" which are not used on assault amphibs but are part of the MPSRONs to ferry stuff ashore. The LCU can carry two tanks or 6 LAVs, and the LCAC can carry one tank or 4 LAVs or MTVRs.

LHD (Wasp-class): 4 LCAC or 2 LCU. 26 CH-46 / 19 CH-53 equivalent
LPD: 2 LCAC or 1 LCU (2 CH-46 internal, 4 on deck)
LSD: 4 LCAC or 2 LCU

The OTL Marine Corps of the early 1990's figured it was going to have 12 of each of these ship types. This has been discussed elsewhere and still seems likely to me.

The late 1980's Marine Corps also had 20-some LSTs, but got rid of them pretty quickly at the end of the Cold War. I looked long and hard at how to keep them but couldn't make it work. http://navy-matters.blogspot.com/2014/01/lst-what-happened.html (read the comments, a guy involved in the planning process explains how unlikely it would be for the Navy to keep them)

That last piece is the AAV, a barely-updated version of the venerable amtrak. The AAV can carry a reinforced Marine squad and launch directly from the well deck, but is essentially useless on land.

So in the OTL 1990's a few things happened. It was decided that ships weren't going to come within 50 miles of the shore for an assault. We talked a little bit about this in the context of naval gunfire, but another important consequence was rethinking connectors. That's where the Osprey came from. Its speed and range were important because it was supposed to be carrying Marines a long way from their ships. Also in the picture was a longer range and much faster AAV replacement that is also much more capable on land. Because that's impossible, no serious replacement has materialized. I chose for the Marines to make the hard choice and toss the AAV in favor of a turretless LAV variant that can carry 9 Marines. 6 of these Marine Personnel Carriers can transport a reinforced rifle platoon and a 22-vehicle platoon mechanizes a MEU.

The Marines did a bottom-up review in the early 1990's and decided that the Marines need the ability to land 2.5 MEBs. I'm not 100% convinced that makes sense. Just as a data point, in a MEF landing scenario from the late 1980's, the RCT required 3 sorties from 11 LCU and 58 LCAC to land. This assumed that 45 AAVs could go directly from the ship, but did not include the airlifted battalion. Landing a MEB will have to be discussed later, though. For now, let's talk the MEU.

The biggest change in the New World Order MEU, aside from aircraft, is the substitution of the MPC for the AAV. There are also a few more motorized vehicles, like the motorized howitzers. The total number of vehicles needing to be ferried ashore is:

22 MPC
6 LAV (LAR)
4 Howitzer (LAV-sized, roughly)
4 MTVR howitzer tenders
(There are also possibly 3 HIMARS systems and 3 support vehicles)
14 HMMWV (Weapons company)
4 M1 Abrams (substituting the Army's M8 AGS reduces firepower but means the tanks take up half the space)
Various odds and ends in the LCE
I'm not counting the SHORAD LAVs, MEWSS, or SLAMRAAMS here.

Small Craft Company gets a more surf-capable CRRC variant and is expected to either go ashore in that or as a second echelon. One company, the EFSS mortars, and odds and ends go ashore by air in one sortie.


Counting on my fingers, that's 3 LCUs and 12 LCACs required to sortie the entire MEU ashore (let me know if I screwed anything up). The well decks of the accompanying 3 amphibs can carry 4 LCACs and 3 LCUs. The accompanying cargo ship, then, could maybe carry 8 LCACs, perhaps on davits? Or we could talk about a different system for getting the MPCs ashore. The Army's Runnymede LCUs could carry the entire tank platoon, just as a thought, but how do we carry them? Would davit-mounted simple landing craft like the Higgins boat work?

Thoughts on how to connect ship to shore? Is anything radically off about my MEU?