No Rome?

[Jack London]

Hi guys here is one i was thinking over in my mind maybe it is too broad to answer but possibly what would happen if the Romans never progressed past the early republic stage past the stage of the etruscan conflicts? what would be the outcome for the rest of europe would there be another power that would rise in romes place.

Your thoughts?

 

[Nikephoros]

Eventually, someone MIGHT pull a Rome. But of all of the powers in the Mediterranean during those times, I don't see anyone of those powers doing it.

It is likely that we see a bunch of seperate powers in the Mediterranean, all trying to best the others.

Powers of say 400 BC:

Persia: Not likely to expand more.

Egypt: May or may not achieve independence. In OTL it had to wait until Ptolemy Soter.

Macedon: May or may not develop pike phalanxes. Alexander butterflied away.

Greek Cities: Each city could create a decent trade empire.

Carthage: May expand more, but not very much.

Iberians, Gauls, Germans: Not unified enough for empire, but we could see expanded native cultures.

 

[Nikephoros]

Im not sure of Roman influence of Macedonian infantry development though.....

I was referring merely to the butterflies that surely would result from Rome not throwing off the Etruscan yoke.

 

[Jack London]

my vision would be a less developed west for a greater time but more varied cultures, would the saxon inavsions of britain be earlier or possibly fail?

Certainly i think the spread of christianity will struggle a great deal possibly leaving a way for islam further into europe

 

[Nikephoros]

With Christianity, it did thrive partly due to its low status. However, with no Rome its likely it wont be oppressed by a Parthia probably occupying Judea- it might spread in the Middle East, but might not into Europe. Islam might not even occur as per OTL, given the absence of monotheistic Christian influences in Arabia.

No, No, No, No, NO Christianity. We might see a messianic form of Judaism, but we will not see Christianity. After 400 years, the butterflies are definately going to erase every chance for Jesus to be born.

 

[Nikephoros]

Are you really sure about that? Cos Rome only got involved in Judea a few years before he was born....

While I don't believe that everyone after a POD won't be born, I am sure that the butterflies would have spread to Judea by this time.

Also, Rome was active in that region for at least 20 years IIRC. Plenty of time to change the chances of Jesus.

 

[Nikephoros]

Yes, but surely the chances are equiprobable?

Some form of messainic religion is bound to spring up, but I wouldn't recreate Christianity. Maybe a Jesus-like figure that is violent. A true "King of the Jews" perhaps?

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Some form of messainic religion is bound to spring up, but I wouldn't recreate Christianity. Maybe a Jesus-like figure that is violent. A true "King of the Jews" perhaps?

Who then takes over Persia and declares it his mission to spread the Word of the God of Abraham to all humanity, by the sword, if necessary?

I'd totally read that.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

With no Roman Empire things would be interresting in the Mediterranean. I suspect italy would be a constant victim of gaul raids (Like the Brennus one). Rich disunited cities and no power to stop the raiding tribes. I am not sure about the Roman influence on Macedon infantry though. I think we would still see Alexander rise, and his empire fall into hellenistic kingdoms. Carthage would probably create a Trade Empire in the Western Meditteranean. Greek cities would be dominated by Macedonia as IRL, but with no Rome to meddle, it will stay that way.

 

[Joseph Solis in Australia]

Maybe Carthage would conduct a trade to Western Europeans and maybe today Spain, France, and Great Britain is Celtic speaking instead of Romance and Germanic in OTL.

 

[SirCliveWolfe]

The world without a Rome is almost inconceivable, at least in the long term, almost anything may happen. Just take the case of Roman Law and Latin, which are so important to modern society, although if Alexander does come o power you may get some for o 'Greek Law'? A few points though;

Christianity: This rather depends upon if one believe's in God and that Jesus as his son. If you do then he will be certinaly be born also, IMO buttifiles are very overated. As long as a person that was born anywhere in the world is not from Roman parentage or heavily influenced by Romans or their culture then I see no reason for them not to have lived?

Also on this point, if Christianity does exist in the TL then you may well end up with a multitude of variations of it without the Roman Catholic chruch. This may well be a very interesting idea to investigate.

Alexander, I'm not so sure about tbh

On point is that there may well be many fewer threads on this bord about the continuation of Rome

 

[Norman]

My guess

No Rome, you probably have an expanding Celtic influence, at first somewhat fractured, but as the tribes learn of the wealth in the peninsula, more tribes move south.

Northern Italy almost certainly becomes more Celtic, probably a larger kingdom.

In the long run I believe without Rome to beat them up, the Celts become the predominent force in Central Europe, Iberia, and North Italy in a number of small kingdoms.

You still would get a lot of the early Germanic wanderings, and without Rome the Cimbri and the Teutons aren't wiped out, so the Swiss area would probably be Germanic.

To the East the Goths are in motion, but without Rome to serve as a magnet, they probably loosely 'bounce' off a Greek state and end up in the Adriatic.

Having a number of small kingdoms would mean that the area is probably better able to resist the expansion of the German tribes around OTL 400 AD, and I would guess that for the most part German would be distributed as it is, with the exception of the Adriatic.

One question though is the destruction of the Dacians (an extremely wealthy people in the middle of Europe) doesn't happen. Does everything happen around them (they didn't seem inclined to foreign adventure), do they become a target for tribal raids (for wealth), or do they become a central power?

In the far east you always have the Persians, and without Rome they are going to come on strong! I see a Persian middle east, which means you could still get a messianic jewish religion, but now responding to Persia rather than Rome. It is possible that this religion would pick up parts of Mithraism (Which I believe is loosely based on a Persian belief system, maybe a fusion occurs again, this time with Mithra on top).

Islam is gone, but it is possible that if there is a powerful mithraism, a counterweight religion forms elsewhere. My guess would be somewhere people have too much time on their hands.

 

[Jack London]

well i have been mulling this one over in my mind and i am going to attempt a timeline but please forgive me if it isnt the greatest as my knowledge of this time is hazy at points so help and criticism will be most valuable

keep looking for updates

 

[Jack London]

i am considering having the etruscans gain more power and sacking the romans creating a small empire in northern italy which then soon collapses after gaulish invasions. But the point would be that by the 3rd century BC the romans would have been anihalted as a power.

I can definately see a long standing carthage but not as powerful as the romans, still they would maintain power in the med.

 

[Historico]

Here's is a great TL, that Robert started a few years ago around the POD That the Etruscan city states formed a leauge and invaded Rome about 450 BCE...Here's the link http://www.geocities.com/robertp6165/etruscancontents.html

 

[Pericles]

Here's is a great TL, that Robert started a few years ago around the POD That the Etruscan city states formed a leauge and invaded Rome about 450 BCE...Here's the link http://www.geocities.com/robertp6165/etruscancontents.html

Perhaps, after the death of the last Antigonid King, there could be a civil war in Macedon and Macedon is divided in two, with one king ruling the city-states and another ruling Macedon itself. And don't forget Pergamon and Pontus while you're at it.

 

[M79]

Carthage will dominate Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, and the whole of Northern Africa west of Cyreanica. Southern Italy will stay Greek while Central Italy will stay a borderland between Etruscan and Greek influence. Rome will likely re-emerge as a trading site with a small distinct culture but not one we would recognize or really even revel in.

Iberia will come under Carthaginean influence and probably eventually become part of their empire, as might various islands of the Atlantic. Carthage might even pursue various voyages of exploration withpossibile colonization from the Azores to Nigeria to Iceland. OTL France will be a hodgepodge of kingdoms and territories of varying dialects and cultures, perhaps as large as medeval counties. The Balkans will gradually see more and more spread of the Greeks until Celts, Germanic tribes, and Eastern nomads take lands for themselves. Look for the Mediterranean to develop commercially on a large scale but under a series of independent kingdoms and not a unified Empire.

 

[Pericles]

Carthage will dominate Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, and the whole of Northern Africa west of Cyreanica. Southern Italy will stay Greek while Central Italy will stay a borderland between Etruscan and Greek influence. Rome will likely re-emerge as a trading site with a small distinct culture but not one we would recognize or really even revel in.

Iberia will come under Carthaginean influence and probably eventually become part of their empire, as might various islands of the Atlantic. Carthage might even pursue various voyages of exploration withpossibile colonization from the Azores to Nigeria to Iceland. OTL France will be a hodgepodge of kingdoms and territories of varying dialects and cultures, perhaps as large as medeval counties. The Balkans will gradually see more and more spread of the Greeks until Celts,anic tribes, and Eastern nomads take lands for themselves. Look for the Mediterranean to develop commercially on a large scale but under a series of independent kingdoms and not a unified Empire.

Then, during the modern day, some archaeologist digs up the ruins of Rome and makes headlines for 1 day!!!!!!