No WWI or equivalent, what happens to the British Empire by 1945?

Britain would decline relatively with the continued economic rise of the US, Germany, and Russia, although it would be one of the big 4 (US may punch below its weight due to isolationism). It'd be a major player, but not as dominant.

As for decolonization, I'm just not buying the optimistic happy scenarios being proposed here. Power concedes nothing without force. A Britain that has not been humbled and exhausted by two World Wars (and then facing two much bigger players that are both, for varying reasons, anti-colonial) will be far less willing to make concessions to the various subject peoples. With a much stronger Britain, combined with arrogance and racism, its TTL decolonization I predict would look a lot more like OTL Portuguese or French Algeria decolonization.

Also a Britain facing stiffer competition from America, Germany, and Russia will be more reluctant to abandon its Empire since it needs that to stay competitive with the other three; the other three draw the vast majority of their wealth, resources, and populations from their metropoles so decolonization would be proportionally far less hurtful to them than to Britain.
It is worth noting that the UK learnt some lessons from the formation of the USA and that Canada was given a much freer hand. There are certainly some grounds for optimism based on that, as well as valid concerns based on the likes of Algeria.

One of the situations I see is that without the loss of life in the first world war there might have been far more migration into africa leaving a larger white population - which would could worsen the long term challenges of stability. Thus the white rule issues with South Africa and Rhodesia could have been more entrenched.

Much would depend on whether there is some sort of cold war going on, as without the presence of an idealogy like communism there could be a very different political environment within independence movements. Perhaps we would see the creation of little monarchies?
 

Deleted member 94680

As far as I can tell, it was, prior to WWI, simply "understood" by those going out to work there.
Fair enough, I was wondering if anything was laid out to see what could happen given time and no WWI derailing any of the plans.
 

David Flin

Gone Fishin'
Fair enough, I was wondering if anything was laid out to see what could happen given time and no WWI derailing any of the plans.
The impression I got was that the timescale was "when the time is right", with the people on the ground working towards this rather than using it as a delaying tactic.

Like Home Rule or Women's Suffrage, working towards may well be a slower process than those on the other end might like.

One interesting snippet, and I will need to dig out the reference, was that it seemed to be felt that different districts were advancing at different rates, and someone (and for the life of me I can't remember who) framed things in terms of a comparison with early USA, with districts having considerable autonomy with a United Districts of India.

I have no idea how this would have played out, even if it were possible.
 

Deleted member 94680

The impression I got was that the timescale was "when the time is right", with the people on the ground working towards this rather than using it as a delaying tactic.

Like Home Rule or Women's Suffrage, working towards may well be a slower process than those on the other end might like.
This is the key point I suppose. The idea of a White, middle/upper class British civil servant who is on a three or four year ‘tour of duty’ as to “soon” or “when the time is right” will be significantly different to a indigenous Hindu or Muslim that is a member of the INC or the AIML and has been agitating for independence or Home Rule for a decade or more.
One interesting snippet, and I will need to dig out the reference, was that it seemed to be felt that different districts were advancing at different rates, and someone (and for the life of me I can't remember who) framed things in terms of a comparison with early USA, with districts having considerable autonomy with a United Districts of India.

I have no idea how this would have played out, even if it were possible.
Again, very hard to tell. Home Rule or even independence for parts of India may increase unrest in the remainder of the Raj rather than settle it. On the other hand, a transparent and well laid out process may quell agitation if the rationale and end result is clear to all.
 
Again, very hard to tell. Home Rule or even independence for parts of India may increase unrest in the remainder of the Raj rather than settle it. On the other hand, a transparent and well laid out process may quell agitation if the rationale and end result is clear to all.
A really good point, but any divisiveness is liable to be felt more by the Indian populace rather than the Brits drawing the maps. It's possible that it will create lasting rivalries and grudges for generations. I would imagine Punjab would lag behind Cashmere, as an example, and likely forment some serious enmity.
 

Deleted member 94680

A really good point, but any divisiveness is liable to be felt more by the Indian populace rather than the Brits drawing the maps. It's possible that it will create lasting rivalries and grudges for generations. I would imagine Punjab would lag behind Cashmere, as an example, and likely forment some serious enmity.
Yeah, I meant the divisions would be within the subcontinent rather than the “administrative class” in New Delhi or Simla. As to it generating division, that would depend on a Chandra Bose or similar stirring it up I would imagine.

Kashmir, as a relatively pro-British Princely State, might well be one of the ‘later’ states to gain independence, but I imagine they (or the rulers at least) would be fine with that.
 
Yeah, I meant the divisions would be within the subcontinent rather than the “administrative class” in New Delhi or Simla. As to it generating division, that would depend on a Chandra Bose or similar stirring it up I would imagine.

Kashmir, as a relatively pro-British Princely State, might well be one of the ‘later’ states to gain independence, but I imagine they (or the rulers at least) would be fine with that.
Firstly, today I learned that Kashmir is not spelt 'Cashmere'. I'm 26 and have been to India twice.

How would a government(s) react to this division? I would imagine a sort of council system being implemented in newly 'freed' areas, but supplying funding and ensuring proper money flow would be perhaps the single greatest economic and administrative effort in the British Empire. These individual districts would be in competition with each other for a relatively limited funding and have another unforeseen problem.

Pakistan and India would be unified. Muslims and Hindus were having some severe conflicts at this time, Britain hadn't really cared and now India gets to deal with this problem.
 

Deleted member 94680

Firstly, today I learned that Kashmir is not spelt 'Cashmere'. I'm 26 and have been to India twice.
Haha, I took a punt that’s what you meant as opposed to the jumpers and cardigans of the British and Indian civil servants.
How would a government(s) react to this division? I would imagine a sort of council system being implemented in newly 'freed' areas, but supplying funding and ensuring proper money flow would be perhaps the single greatest economic and administrative effort in the British Empire.
If regional Home Rule is implemented, I doubt there would be any Council as that would seem like Britain retaining the Raj by another name.
These individual districts would be in competition with each other for a relatively limited funding and have another unforeseen problem.
I imagine that would be a welcome side effect from the British point of view. Competition between Indian states (or Dominions) would lessen the chance of a Nationalist republic rising to compete with British influence in the region. Funds and the ‘benevolence’ of London could be offered to “loyal” Dominions to keep them in line.
Pakistan and India would be unified.
I doubt unification into analogous religion-based states would be London’s original plan. At the minimum, I think the Presidencies would be a basis for division.
Muslims and Hindus were having some severe conflicts at this time, Britain hadn't really cared and now India gets to deal with this problem.
Pre-WWI? I don’t think any Hindu-Muslim conflict was completely similar to that in ‘47 and ‘48 - as that was produced by the strife of Partition and Independence.
 
If regional Home Rule is implemented, I doubt there would be any Council as that would seem like Britain retaining the Raj by another name
I meant more like a British town council. Installing a friendly, maybe even subservient, democratic government will probably be easier if you're even more familiar with the details of governance than the actual candidates of that government. Moreover, if the end goal is a friendly democracy, ensuring that the government type remains similar is a big boost to that, even if it is simply because students will one day learn of their British cousins and how they introduced democracy to your homeland. It might leave out a lot, but that will be the version taught by a friendly nation.

I doubt unification into analogous religion-based states would be London’s original plan. At the minimum, I think the Presidencies would be a basis for division.
That's actually my point. The muslim people of the Raj would still be intermingled with the hindu majority. This lead to various amounts of civil disruption and what would now be classed as hate crime from both sides, as well as a now larger white population at a time when societal integration was a very different beast to what we have now.

Pre-WWI? I don’t think any Hindu-Muslim conflict was completely similar to that in ‘47 and ‘48 - as that was produced by the strife of Partition and Independence.
Sorry again, I was talking about personal conflict rather than warfare. There are quite a few anecdotes of what would now be classed as hate crimes from and towards both muslim and hindu peoples. I think a number were brought up in the Gandhi movie, and were based on real events.

I seem to have used the wrong words a lot in my last post, so I am sorry for that.
 

Deleted member 94680

@Tangles up aubergine I see what you’re saying, but I feel maybe you’re putting too much of a “post ‘47” spin on things, rather than what or how an alt-British government would do things in a no-WWI scenario.

For example, I doubt a “subservient” government would be the result of any Home Rule movement, as how would that be different from the Raj and why bother? By its very nature, HR would produce a government wanting - at the least - to strike a course free of British interference (at least domestically) and at the worst actively hostile to London having any say in internal matters.

Religious communes and regions would probably be the most complicated issue of any HR agreement (as in Ireland and very much as in India/Pakistan OTL) and I imagine (this is just my view and not based in any hard fact) the Princely States would be used as a vehicle to provide ‘protection’ to these minority regions.

For what it’s worth, I’ve always felt a British administration ‘allowing’ Indian Home Rule would utilise Hyderabad as a pro-British bulwark to base a military and political presence to maintain order and intervene in communal strife if it erupted.
I seem to have used the wrong words a lot in my last post, so I am sorry for that.
Don’t apologise for that, as long as we can discuss things, it’s up to me to understand what you’re saying.
 
I see what you’re saying, but I feel maybe you’re putting too much of a “post ‘47” spin on things, rather than what or how an alt-British government would do things in a no-WWI scenario
Almost definitely. I only got involved in this thread because I have an unhealthy attraction to the words 'British Empire'. Most of our own discourse has been interspersed wwith some serious wiki browsing. I can admit that I am very much looking at it from a post-47 viewpoint, you are probably more knowledgable about most of India's problems.

For example, I doubt a “subservient” government would be the result of any Home Rule movement, as how would that be different from the Raj and why bother? By its very nature, HR would produce a government wanting - at the least - to strike a course free of British interference (at least domestically) and at the worst actively hostile to London having any say in internal matters.
I was highlighting a subservient government as a probable target for British interests. Doubtful they would succeed as you say, but Westminster would be trying to have as much influence as possible over India. Also, freedom from British interference is unlikely in the extreme. Free from their courts and decrees, certainly, but a decolonising Britain would trying very hard for a friendly relationship. Such a relationship would, not dissimilar from OTLs US-UK special relationship, have a number of unwritten agreements ranging from an unspoken favourable trade to guaruntees of naval bases or a million other things, all of which could be beneficial to one or both sides.

For what it’s worth, I’ve always felt a British administration ‘allowing’ Indian Home Rule would utilise Hyderabad as a pro-British bulwark to base a military and political presence to maintain order and intervene in communal strife if it erupted.
You would probably be spot on in this regard, though I think the British would focus more on getting out of India militarily, as armed forces are expensive to maintain. I would think that any armed presence would be tasked primarily with training up local replacements and ensuring that any remaining British interests were protected. Perhaps this amounts to a naval base and some destroyers to prevent piracy?

Religious communes and regions would probably be the most complicated issue of any HR agreement (as in Ireland and very much as in India/Pakistan OTL) and I imagine (this is just my view and not based in any hard fact) the Princely States would be used as a vehicle to provide ‘protection’ to these minority regions.
I moved this bit further down as I don't have much to add. You make a good comparison to the Irish protestant/catholic clashes that does require me to point out that even now such clashes are somewhat commonplace.
Don’t apologise for that, as long as we can discuss things, it’s up to me to understand what you’re saying.
Thanks for being so understanding, but I'll try and be clearer in the future.
 

N7Buck

Banned
What are people's views on how the Britain-Dominion relationship would evolve, Imperial Federation, closer integration?

Prior to the World Wars, Anglo-American relations were being developed, and American intervention in the wars solidified the Special Relationship.
So without the WWs, US-British relations will be friendly, but separate spheres.

This means the Canadian economy is more tied to Britain, thus Canada is more aligned with Britain. Australasia was always very aligned with Britain, being seen as an extension of the British Isles and a population that was 98% Anglo-Celtic. So without Gallipoli, Anglo-Australasian relations won't change.

Eventually the imperial exterior will erode, as they were treated as resource colonies and ruled by distant foreigners. India was on it's way to self governance, within or outside of the British sphere. And African colonies being unprofitable will generate anti-colonial sentiments from the metropole,
 
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What are people's views on how the Britain-Dominion relationship would evolve, Imperial Federation, closer integration?
After 1900 the opportunity for Imperial Federation had passed. Perhaps Richard Jebb's "Britanic Alliance" below or perhaps also John Buchan's ideas. Buchan was a theorist of empire who wrote for highly educated and engaged audiences. Imperial citizenship was primarily an “attitude,” a form of British identity, albeit one that allowed for local and regional loyalties as well. This broader imperial identity was to be built on a “shared morality” or “character”. Citizenship, as conceived by Buchan, consisted not of equality or individual rights, but the recognition and proper performance of one’s duty.

Richard Jebb contrasted the various formations:
Imperial Federation vs Britannic Alliance

Our Colonies (as is)

1587122560013.jpeg



Imperial Federation with dependencies

1587122560045.jpeg



Imperial Federation - Racial equality

1587122560078.jpeg



Britannic Alliance (5 free nations)

1587122560107.jpeg



In the 1920's Jebb lamented that the Dominions cheerfully attending League of Nations forums but then struggled to attend Imperial Conferences. He though the Empire should have followed the US and not joined the League and leave it as a 'European thing'.
 
After 1900 the opportunity for Imperial Federation had passed. Perhaps Richard Jebb's "Britanic Alliance" below or perhaps also John Buchan's ideas. Buchan was a theorist of empire who wrote for highly educated and engaged audiences. Imperial citizenship was primarily an “attitude,” a form of British identity, albeit one that allowed for local and regional loyalties as well. This broader imperial identity was to be built on a “shared morality” or “character”. Citizenship, as conceived by Buchan, consisted not of equality or individual rights, but the recognition and proper performance of one’s duty.

Richard Jebb contrasted the various formations:
Imperial Federation vs Britannic Alliance

Our Colonies (as is)

1587122560013.jpeg



Imperial Federation with dependencies

1587122560045.jpeg



Imperial Federation - Racial equality

1587122560078.jpeg



Britannic Alliance (5 free nations)

1587122560107.jpeg



In the 1920's Jebb lamented that the Dominions cheerfully attending League of Nations forums but then struggled to attend Imperial Conferences. He though the Empire should have followed the US and not joined the League and leave it as a 'European thing'.
yeah i believe Joseph Chamberlain's ideas were the last time for a proper pod for an Imperial Federation.
 
The Development of Dominion military power.

Out of all the unfulfilled naval expansion plans prior to WW1, this represents an interesting 'green fields' process and the most detailed of pre-war plans as a 68 page report that goes down to including how many bandsmen the navy would need in 20 years time.

https://www.navy.gov.au/media-room/publ ... -henderson

In 1911, after the Australian Government outlayed £3.5m on the Fleet Unit (1BC, 2CL, 6DD, 2SS), Admiral Sir Reginald Henderson was tasked with proving a Naval blueprint for Australia. Henderson's plan was based on assumptions that allowed for an equivalent contribution by 4.5m Australians to 45m British and that Australia shared no land borders and therefore had a minimal requirement for an army. He also pointed out that Britain's sea borne trade was worth £1B per year, Australia's was £162m per year and represents a 16% proportion of Britain's trade. This suggests Australia could pay a higher defence burden than the 10% population proportion. Most of the document concerned crew levels and how to grow these with a close eye on where these recruits would geographically come from.

Over a 20 year timetable the RAN was to expand to 15 000 men, 5 000 reserves and centered on two Divisions based on population. East (NSW, Queensland) with 3BC, 3CL, 8DD, 3SS (1BC, 2CL, 4DD in Reserve) and West (Vic, TAS, SA, WA) with 3BC, 3CL, 4DD, 9SS (1BC, 2CL, 2DD Reserve). The East Division principal bases were Sydney, Brisbane, Westernport (VIC) and Port Stevens (NSW) with minor bases as Tamar River (TAS), Hobart, Townsville, and Thursday Island. The West Division principal bases were Fremantle, Port Lincoln and Westernport. Minor bases were Darwin, Albany, Cone Bay, Hobart and River Tamar.

The outlay was about £40m in infrastructure across the 6 main bases and 7 smaller bases, £20m in ship construction and £28m in operating costs. Paying for this would be about 2% of GDP per year and amount to £90m over 20 years. By 1910, Australia's defence spending was at £3m or 0.9% of GDP and only 14.7% of Government expenditure. By 1911-12 it was at £4.7m while 2% GDP, a usual defence burden, would push this number to £6.7m so the Henderson Plan is affordable. Infrastructure costs will be significant, A Fleet Base like Rosyth took 10 years to build and cost £4.25m. A drydock costs £1.25m and takes 4 years to build. One was needed in Sydney and one in Fremantle.

Never officially adopted, the government followed the blueprint during the war years, some ships were ordered inline with the schedule and several million pounds was spent on base construction. Note that this money was outside war funding. Jellicoe's postwar 1919 review also proposed an annual £4m contribution for Australia's naval defence but to the contribution of a Eastern Fleet, based on Singapore of 8 BB, 8 BC and 4 CV. During the war, Australian prices had doubled and debt soared. The mood on the navy had changed, apart from officer and ship exchange the Jellicoe report was completely rejected.

The Henderson schedule from 1918 onwards: (by 1917 1 BC, 3CL, 12DD 6 Subs 1 Tender would already been built)

1918 6 DD, 1 Tender
1919 1 BC
1920 1 CL, 1 Tender
1921 1 BC
1922 2 CL, 6SS

1923 1 Repair Ship
1924 1 BC
1925 1 BC
1926 1 BC (original 6 DD replaced)
1927 2 CL (original 3 SS replaced)

1928 Nothing (3 SS replaced)
1929 1 BC (original 3 CL replaced)
1930 Nothing (original BC replaced)
1931 1 BC
1932 2 CL

The BC were about £2m each, CL £450 000, DD and SS £90 000, Auxiliaries £200 000 each. These are Tiger/Renown size ships at about £70 per ton. CL will be Town/ C Class size. If a carrier was substituted for a later ship it would probably be about 14 000 tons with 18 aircraft as equal and equivalent lifecycle cost for a 27 000 ton BC.

The original 1913 Fleet Unit of 1BC, 2CL, 6 DD and 2 SS had cost £3.5m. The future costs were outlined as £989 500 per year (£70 000 more per year than the yearly cost of establishing the fleet unit)

In 1932 Australia's Population was 5.4m. The Navy budget had shrunk from £2.6m (+£2m construction) in 1927-28 to just £1.5m (£0 construction) in 1932. Total defence spending in 1932 was £3.2m or 0.6% of GDP, in 1927 it had been £7.3m but still only 1% of GDP.

The cost of the war to Australia was £377 million, of which 70% (£264 m) was borrowed and the rest came from taxes (£113 m). Overall, the war had a significantly negative impact on the Australia economy. Real aggregate GDP declined by 9.5 percent over the period 1914 to 1920, while the mobilization of personnel resulted in a 6 percent decline in civilian employment. Meanwhile, although population growth continued during the war years, it was only half that of the prewar rate. Per capita incomes also declined sharply, failing by 16 percent. By 1934 the total cost of the war had grown to £831.3m

The Australian Government was paying out £7.7m in war pensions per year by 1932. In a more prosperous world without WW1, an outlay of £8.3m per year by 1932 on the navy should have been quite easy.

If Australia was good for £14m in capital ships over 20 years then perhaps Canada could fund say £21m. While Canada may not develop a navy in the RAN's image, donating ships like Malaya and New Zealand is a cheap option. To take New Zealand as an example. She could opt to have a navy with a single CL for 20 years and this would cost the same as donating a BC with no further costs.

If Australia and Canada chose to live off the protection provided by the Empire and only commit 1% instead of 2% GDP then this is still a RAN of 4 BC and Canada gifting 5 QE type ships.

When Australia went to war in 1939, there were 9 cruisers, (2CA, 4CL, 3AMC), 5000 Naval Regulars and 5000 Reservists who were mobilised from a 7m population size. This was half the numbers envisaged for 1932 under the Henderson Plan.

The threats

German pre-war war plans targeted Australian shipping with cruisers with the idea of drawing off RN ships based in Europe. German plans assumed Japanese neutrality and were blunted with the arrival of HMAS Australia in 1913. It appears that the German military regarded the potential value of the region not only in strategic terms, but also in cultural value: Deutschtum, or the maintenance of German culture in a ‘foreign’ context, was an extremely important issue. There were 50,000 'German' immigrants in Australia in 1914.

German warships, Condor (in 1910) and Cormoran (in 1912) paid visits to several Australian ports including Sydney, Melbourne, Hobart, Adelaide, and Brisbane. Detailed reports were made on the state of German culture in each individual area, through contact with German social clubs and communities. The presence of German ‘patriotic’ spirit, through the forms of language, religion, and ‘imperial’ sentiment (the display of Kaiser Wilhelm's portrait in one Tasmanian home drew particular praise) were carefully noted by the visitors, and any absence of such loyalty in German communities deplored. Of course, there was a strategic purpose to this surveillance: as noted by the senior German station officer, Captain Kranzbuhler, following the 1910 tour, 'nothing serves German interests better than a visit by a German warship to Australian ports.’

The 1919 BC

These ships (laid down 1919 and 1921) could be about 29 000 tons full load, 6 15" guns, 9" belt, 30kts, 690ft long with 88 ft beam and 27 ft draft. A small tube boiler, geared turbine Lion with 6 15" guns. Faster and with bigger guns than a Kongo or any German ship. This ship would be about £2.3m, a 15% increase over budget but in line with contempories. 8 13.5" guns could be done on the same displacement, a mini-Hood. Speed could be dropped to 26 knots and 8 15" shipped with 4" secondaries. These ships would be mixed fuel oil/coal like the Cavendish class cruisers as the Australian navy was still coal based. With 6" in casements to save costs, they would probably be double storied like the 1914 battleships. To meet the cost of about £1.9m, then reduce size to 27 075 tons full load, 8 13.5" guns, 9" belt, speed down to 25 knots on a 670ft long, 90.3ft beam and 24.6ft draft hull. Secondaries would need to be 8 twin 4" in shields. The speed will match HMAS Australia as a tactical unit but not be enough to catch modern cruisers.
 
The British Armed forces generally do what Westminster asks them to do - and as soon as/if British soldiers start dying at the hands of Unionists then they (the Unionists) lose popular support in the rest of the UK.
The first question is:

What form does Ulster resistance to Home Rule take?

What powers would the proposed Dublin government have? And how would these powers be exercised?

Would Dublin have the power to enact and collect taxes? Would Dublin host a national police force, comparable to Scotland Yard?
 
The first question is:

What form does Ulster resistance to Home Rule take?

What powers would the proposed Dublin government have? And how would these powers be exercised?

Would Dublin have the power to enact and collect taxes? Would Dublin host a national police force, comparable to Scotland Yard?
Resistance: I could not say for sure - I suspect, sadly, a great deal of sectarian and even inter faction violence. But then this happened anyway!

Dublin Government: I am not sure I suspect initially some form of devolved parliament generally like we see today in Scotland, Wales and less successfully in NI. Beyond that???

Taxes and Police: Eventually yes.
 

Deleted member 94680

The Development of Dominion military power.
...Infrastructure costs will be significant, A Fleet Base like Rosyth took 10 years to build and cost £4.25m. A drydock costs £1.25m and takes 4 years to build. One was needed in Sydney and one in Fremantle.
First off, an excellent post, loaded with good information. Fantastic that there is a document it comes from as well.

If Australia were to accept the “Henderson Plan” would there be a chance Britain funds at least one of the Fleet Bases?
 

N7Buck

Banned
First off, an excellent post, loaded with good information. Fantastic that there is a document it comes from as well.

If Australia were to accept the “Henderson Plan” would there be a chance Britain funds at least one of the Fleet Bases?
How often did Britain fund Dominion military, and what was the purpose, rather than using that money on the home islands (manpower, prestige)? And did Britain give foreign aid to the dominions?
 

RousseauX

Donor
It is worth noting that the UK learnt some lessons from the formation of the USA and that Canada was given a much freer hand. There are certainly some grounds for optimism based on that, as well as valid concerns based on the likes of Algeria.

One of the situations I see is that without the loss of life in the first world war there might have been far more migration into africa leaving a larger white population - which would could worsen the long term challenges of stability. Thus the white rule issues with South Africa and Rhodesia could have been more entrenched.

Much would depend on whether there is some sort of cold war going on, as without the presence of an idealogy like communism there could be a very different political environment within independence movements. Perhaps we would see the creation of little monarchies?
Was there a big emigration wave from UK to SA before WWI?
 
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