Ottomans rampaging in the Indian Ocean

basileus

Let's see if someone has the guts to fully explore and develop this scenario. Let's say that Selim Yavuz Sultan lives to a ripe old age, continuing all the time to happily put his viziers to death as he used to. Hi son Suleiman (the Magnificent of OTL) is sent to consolidate control over newly-acquired lands in Syria and Egypt abnd to make his Hajj in Mecca. In Arabia Suleiman falls in love with the place and people, and after visiting Egypt he takes a special interest in navigation. With the Portuguese in possession of the Indian Ocean and news about the fabulous land discovered by them and the Spaniards in the remote West, Suleiman decides that it's in the best interest of the empire to expand a navy, not so much in the restricted waters of the Mediterranean, but in the Indian Ocean. When Selim dies in 1534, he's ready. Having forged a strict alliance with Venice, now heavily damaged by Portugues monopoly on spices, the Turks build a modern fleet in the Red Sea, on condition that Venice may take a share of profits; even mixed commercial societies are created. The new Ottoman nay in the following years will assault Yemen and Erithrea importing coffee to Europe, chase the Portuguese from the Red Sea, chase them down around the Horn of Africa, and in the years explore the eastern African coast, establishing colonies in the Comores and Madagascar, up to the Cape of Good Hope and beyond, venturing into the Atlantic. Ship-building techniques taken from the Portuguese will later allow to reach South America...

Thoughts? Timelines?
 

Franciscus Caesar

basileus said:
Let's see if someone has the guts to fully explore and develop this scenario. Let's say that Selim Yavuz Sultan lives to a ripe old age, continuing all the time to happily put his viziers to death as he used to. Hi son Suleiman (the Magnificent of OTL) is sent to consolidate control over newly-acquired lands in Syria and Egypt abnd to make his Hajj in Mecca. In Arabia Suleiman falls in love with the place and people, and after visiting Egypt he takes a special interest in navigation. With the Portuguese in possession of the Indian Ocean and news about the fabulous land discovered by them and the Spaniards in the remote West, Suleiman decides that it's in the best interest of the empire to expand a navy, not so much in the restricted waters of the Mediterranean, but in the Indian Ocean. When Selim dies in 1534, he's ready. Having forged a strict alliance with Venice, now heavily damaged by Portugues monopoly on spices, the Turks build a modern fleet in the Red Sea, on condition that Venice may take a share of profits; even mixed commercial societies are created. The new Ottoman nay in the following years will assault Yemen and Erithrea importing coffee to Europe, chase the Portuguese from the Red Sea, chase them down around the Horn of Africa, and in the years explore the eastern African coast, establishing colonies in the Comores and Madagascar, up to the Cape of Good Hope and beyond, venturing into the Atlantic. Ship-building techniques taken from the Portuguese will later allow to reach South America...

Thoughts? Timelines?
Click to expand...

Venice, Dawn of a New Power. Its your EXACT scenario except with Venice as the lead. basically, flip Venice with the Ottomans and everything you said above is done :)
 

Faraday Cage

I would love to see Ottoman influenced India, Africa, and South America.
 

Gamaz

I see the Ottomans reaching Africa not just through the Indian Ocean, but through Egypt. It's a wonder how they never really went beyond the Nubia in that part of the world. The Ottomans could easily tap fertile Nile waters all the way to modern-day Entebbe, and establish a significant presence in East Africa.
In the Indian Ocean, I see the Ottomans building an extensive trade network, and possibly entering an alliance with some local Muslim rajas in India. The Mughal Empire was Muslim-and I see the Ottomans playing the religion card over and over. Aggressive Ottoman forces on both its frontiers would subdue Persia even more.
Oh, and with the Ottomans establishing a stronghold in India, this could alter the extent of French/English/Dutch/Portoguese penetration in India. Perhaps the jewel in the crown would never be.
After India, the Ottomans would head eastwards to Southeast Asia, where the Dutch and Portoguese have established trading posts. The Ottomans would entire into alliances with Muslim rulers there, and eventually, annex them to the Ottoman Empire. And who knows? Perhaps a small boat leaving some port in the Ottoman East Indies will stumble upon a virgin beach uncharted by anyone....down under, ladies and gentlemen :D
 

lothaw

*Turns on the Abdul light which is a crecent moon and star on the moon*

Our resident Ottoman expert has probably thourghly explored this one several times already.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
Gamaz said:
I see the Ottomans reaching Africa not just through the Indian Ocean, but through Egypt. It's a wonder how they never really went beyond the Nubia in that part of the world. The Ottomans could easily tap fertile Nile waters all the way to modern-day Entebbe, and establish a significant presence in East Africa.
In the Indian Ocean, I see the Ottomans building an extensive trade network, and possibly entering an alliance with some local Muslim rajas in India. The Mughal Empire was Muslim-and I see the Ottomans playing the religion card over and over. Aggressive Ottoman forces on both its frontiers would subdue Persia even more.
Oh, and with the Ottomans establishing a stronghold in India, this could alter the extent of French/English/Dutch/Portoguese penetration in India. Perhaps the jewel in the crown would never be.
After India, the Ottomans would head eastwards to Southeast Asia, where the Dutch and Portoguese have established trading posts. The Ottomans would entire into alliances with Muslim rulers there, and eventually, annex them to the Ottoman Empire. And who knows? Perhaps a small boat leaving some port in the Ottoman East Indies will stumble upon a virgin beach uncharted by anyone....down under, ladies and gentlemen :D
Click to expand...

- The Ottomans did go beyond Nubia. In fact they went to Lake Victoria and the Congo. Before the 18th c, however, there was no reason to, and no ability due to tropical diseases.

- The Ottomans did establish a presence in Africa. They took Suakin, Massawa, and Zeila, establishing a province there that they still controlled in 1884.

- The Ottomans would likely ally with the Mughals and help them maintain power. If the Ottomans expand, it will be at Portuguese expense. Muscat and the East African coast. There is really no question of conquering India.
 

Riain

Banned
Wasn't the Mugal empire in India somehow an offshoot of or related to the Ottomans? Or am I confusing myself?
 

Michael B

basileus said:
Suleiman decides that it's in the best interest of the empire to expand a navy, not so much in the restricted waters of the Mediterranean, but in the Indian Ocean.
Click to expand...
Considering that the main enemy fleets are in the Mediterranean why would any Turkish sultan waste gold on building a fleet anywhere else. In fact it would be counterproductive because the Ottomans were winning the war in the Med and a diversion of effort could permit the Christians to roll them back.

If Sulieman was as smart as in the original posting, he would not rampage in the Indian because then the christians would be rampaging in the eastern Med.
 

pompejus

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
- The Ottomans would likely ally with the Mughals and help them maintain power. If the Ottomans expand, it will be at Portuguese expense. Muscat and the East African coast. There is really no question of conquering India.
Click to expand...

The Dutch only got in the colonization game almost by accident. They set up a couple of trading posts to trade in the east and slowly got more and more influence and control of the region. Couldn't that happen with the Ottomans? They found a couple of trading posts in India and Indonesia and over the decades their influence expands and finaly they control important parts of the region. I am not saying this would lead to an Ottoman India and Indonesia, but I could see important parts of them (lets say Sumatra, Malaysia and north east of India, with the rest in European or native hands) becoming some sort of Ottoman colony. I always considered this more likely then (large) Ottoman colonies in America.
 

Gamaz

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
- The Ottomans did go beyond Nubia. In fact they went to Lake Victoria and the Congo. Before the 18th c, however, there was no reason to, and no ability due to tropical diseases.

- The Ottomans did establish a presence in Africa. They took Suakin, Massawa, and Zeila, establishing a province there that they still controlled in 1884.

- The Ottomans would likely ally with the Mughals and help them maintain power. If the Ottomans expand, it will be at Portuguese expense. Muscat and the East African coast. There is really no question of conquering India.
Click to expand...
What about commodities such as slaves, ivory etc.? And at the first sign of the scramble for a slice of la gateau Africaine, why didn't they strengthen their foothold? I know that Lake Victoria was 'discovered' by British explorers with the Ottomans/Egyptians footing the bill, but Uganda somehow became a British, not Turko-Egyptian realm.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
- The Ottomans would likely ally with the Mughals and help them maintain power. If the Ottomans expand, it will be at Portuguese expense. Muscat and the East African coast. There is really no question of conquering India.
Click to expand...

I wonder if the rela problem with the Ottomans in either this, or a new world TL, is the lack of a substantital mercantile community which would lobby for either goal. After all, denying the trade to Portugal is one thing, but the benefit of seizing the spice trade might be less apparent.
 

The Sandman

Banned
Have a more openly hostile Portugal/Spain start directly preying on the hajj. IIRC, there was a fair bit of wealth involved in each pilgrimage, enough to attract pirates in OTL. Here, the Iberians are doing it partly for wealth and partly to kill heathens.

Since the Ottoman Sultan claims the title of Caliph and Protector of the Holy Cities, he can't just let this go. The titles might not have any real power attached, but it would still be incredibly embarrassing if someone using those titles abandoned the hajj to infidel depredation.

The thing is that once the Ottomans finish suppressing the Iberian piracy, they're now going to have a sizable modern navy in the Red Sea and Indian Ocean by default, and probably bases in East Africa and India as well. They may as well keep putting them to good use by expanding Ottoman influence and commerce in the regions.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
pompejus said:
The Dutch only got in the colonization game almost by accident. They set up a couple of trading posts to trade in the east and slowly got more and more influence and control of the region. Couldn't that happen with the Ottomans? They found a couple of trading posts in India and Indonesia and over the decades their influence expands and finaly they control important parts of the region. I am not saying this would lead to an Ottoman India and Indonesia, but I could see important parts of them (lets say Sumatra, Malaysia and north east of India, with the rest in European or native hands) becoming some sort of Ottoman colony. I always considered this more likely then (large) Ottoman colonies in America.
Click to expand...

The Ottomans don't need trading out posts because most of the trade is controlled by merchants from Muscat and the Hadramaut. Controlling these places would give them access to all the trade of India and East Africa. There are already large Hadrami colonies in India and Indonesia.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
Gamaz said:
What about commodities such as slaves, ivory etc.? And at the first sign of the scramble for a slice of la gateau Africaine, why didn't they strengthen their foothold? I know that Lake Victoria was 'discovered' by British explorers with the Ottomans/Egyptians footing the bill, but Uganda somehow became a British, not Turko-Egyptian realm.
Click to expand...

The Scramble for Africa was touched off by Britain's occupation of Egypt. France and Germany then assaulted Britain's predominance everywhere else in order to gain diplomatic leverage over the British position in Egypt.

The Egyptian occupation was made possible by the Ottoman defeat against Russia in 1878. They were simply too weak to do anything about it. There were overtures to the Ottomans to intervene in Egypt on British/French terms, and later in the Sudan and Somaliland coast, but Abdul Hamid II refused because he didn't feel the empire could afford such entanglements, he needed to retain as much diplomatic maneuvering room as possible to avoid falling into being a protectorate of either Russia or Britain, and he didn't feel the Caliphate could afford to be seen to be fighting other Muslims, especially as a tool of a Christian power.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
Faeelin said:
I wonder if the rela problem with the Ottomans in either this, or a new world TL, is the lack of a substantital mercantile community which would lobby for either goal. After all, denying the trade to Portugal is one thing, but the benefit of seizing the spice trade might be less apparent.
Click to expand...

There was a substantial mercantile community, but it wasn't particularly influential with the State. However, as I said, if the Ottomans dominate the South coast of Arabia, in addition to the merchants of the Red Sea and Basra, the Ottomans would have a very commanding position over Indian Ocean trade, plus a very well-established network of Arabian merchant communities throughout the Indian Ocean.
 
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