Poland cede.
- Thread starter lounge60
- Start date
You mean the demands which floated around in the winter of 38/39, or the final ultimatum of August?
In the first case, the actual cessions are comparatively irrelevant. The important thing was that they came as part of a package deal, which included Poland joining the axis. Massive changes from our timeline ensue.
In the second case, nothing changes since Hitler had already made his mind up about going to war. As soon as the first set of demands is accepted, Hitler issues another until he gets his war.
What next?
Interesting.
With Poland in Axis i presume that the next thing is the attack to Soviet Union.
But in this case UK and France
would make war for help the communist Russia?
For Poland? Posen and Silesia. Outside of Poland? Memelland, Eupen-Malmedy, maybe Lichtenstein. Maybe, if Hitler realy wants its war with France Alsace-Lorraine. There is still enough to claim for German nationalists and after a while the demands will be unacceptable. Since Hitler wanted war, he will get war.
I don't think that this alone would even change very much from OTL, as the war still seems to be looming on the horizon. If no war erupts, the more interesting aspect is whether or not the Soviets will still invade Poland following the cession of the corridor. The situation for the Allies would be difficult, as a containment of the Soviet Union was just as important to them as a containment of Nazi Germany.
The Memelland had already been integrated into Germany in March 1939, almost half a year before the Danzig ultimatum.
Realy? I thought it was after. Maybe I should read up on the build up to WWII again. I was convinced it happened after Poland.
Stalin did try his best to 'contain' Germany, but UK and France were simply not interested.
Sending a low-level delegation off to Stalin just showed the interest, even to the extent where the Strang mission travelled by (slow) boat.
They did not have powers to sign anything and Stalin must have been rather frustrated.
Offering Poland help was a bit of a last chance. Poland simply could not accept Soviet troops in transit to fight Germany, so there went that chance as well.
I think the agreement is that Hitler did read it very well. He wanted war at that time and he surely got it.
For Poland to cede anything would have been suicide. Beck must have realised that they were cornered.
So, Maybe any Polish giving way on things would have delayed it by a few weeks, but probably not more.
If any serious delays would have happened, the start would have been too late in the season. ... and Hitler was in a hurry.
The momentum had to be kept up. Czech in March had to be followed by Poland in late 1939. If a full year had gone by with no other agression, Germany might have liked that too much.
Ivan
Sending a low-level delegation off to Stalin just showed the interest, even to the extent where the Strang mission travelled by (slow) boat.
They did not have powers to sign anything and Stalin must have been rather frustrated.
Offering Poland help was a bit of a last chance. Poland simply could not accept Soviet troops in transit to fight Germany, so there went that chance as well.
I think the agreement is that Hitler did read it very well. He wanted war at that time and he surely got it.
For Poland to cede anything would have been suicide. Beck must have realised that they were cornered.
So, Maybe any Polish giving way on things would have delayed it by a few weeks, but probably not more.
If any serious delays would have happened, the start would have been too late in the season. ... and Hitler was in a hurry.
The momentum had to be kept up. Czech in March had to be followed by Poland in late 1939. If a full year had gone by with no other agression, Germany might have liked that too much.
Ivan
HeavyWeaponsGuy
Banned
Hitler actually cooperated with the Poles on the Memel issue.
In other words, two repulsive right-wing antisemitic dictatorships with ferocious ethnic nationalist ideologies found unlikely common ground.
Didn't they also cooperate over czechoslovakia, in which Poland got a Czech village? The Polish government could be really shortsighted in those days.
AussieHawker
Banned
No it was Slovakian which got taken back by the Slovakian puppet during the Polish invasion. But yeah they were short sighted.
Remember that "should read up about the build up to WWII" remark? That still remains true.
Anyone know a good book about it?
Such a shame Germany always gets so unfairly singled out ... Your implication that Polish and German nationalist policies, one of which called for the murder of about 100 million people and the other ... ah ... didn't were comparable, is repulsive.
HeavyWeaponsGuy
Banned
Honestly, had it been someone less crazy than the Nazis, it is quite possible that Interwar Germany and Poland, in spite of differences, could have done fairly well for themselves. They both had quite a common cause in containing the Soviets and both sides had a reasonable amount of trade goods that the other wanted.
Point, though by say, 1938-39 we didn't have the Holocaust to go off of, for all intents and purposes these were two right-wing nationalist interwar dictatorships to observers. It is only with the Holocaust and its associated depravities that the Nazi regime well and truly sank to new levels of infamy.
That said, consider how much cooperation the Nazis received in Poland (as well as elsewhere in Europe, Poland would hardly be alone) for their extermination of the Polish Jews without a particularly outstanding amount of coercion. My problem with considering the Holocaust to be something that was exclusively a product of the Nazis was that the Holocaust always relied upon local elements to be carried out. And in all too many places, the Nazis proved quite effective in finding and recruiting people who collaborated with them of their own. The Vichy regime in France was particularly pleased to go along with Nazi policies on this matter. And Poland with its enormous prewar Jewish population was also a particularly poignant case.
Originally posted by HeavyWeaponsGuy
Excuse me? Do you know what was punishment for helping a Jew in Nazi-occupied Poland? Death, usually immediate execution; often execution of everybody in the house a Jew was found in, sometimes sending everyone in the BUILDING to the concentration camp. In 1942 in a small village of Ciepielów 34 persons were burned alive by Germans for helping Jews. Any help to a Jew was a crime - a Pole might have been shot on sight if he was seen giving a Jew a piece of bread. I would call it a rather big amount of coercion.
Although I must admit, that far too many Poles indeed refused to help Jews or even helped Germans to persecute Jews, blackmailed hiding Jews (and their Polish protectors too), murdered them. Polish Resistance considered it a crime and treason, and a number of such persons was executed. Unfortunately, antisemitism was very strong in Poland at the time and such incidents were far too numerous. Every nations has its parcel of rogues and under Nazi brutal occupation that scum were able to operate freely, with German blessing.
Polish antisemitism had also many faces - one of the most active agents saving Jews was Zofia Kossak-Szczucka, a writer and declared antisemite, co-founder of Żegota (a branch of Polish Resistance saving Jews); in her Manifesto she declared that Jews were still enemies of Poles, but whoever helped Germans in killing Jews had no riight to call himself a Pole or a Catholic.
Excuse me? Do you know what was punishment for helping a Jew in Nazi-occupied Poland? Death, usually immediate execution; often execution of everybody in the house a Jew was found in, sometimes sending everyone in the BUILDING to the concentration camp. In 1942 in a small village of Ciepielów 34 persons were burned alive by Germans for helping Jews. Any help to a Jew was a crime - a Pole might have been shot on sight if he was seen giving a Jew a piece of bread. I would call it a rather big amount of coercion.
Although I must admit, that far too many Poles indeed refused to help Jews or even helped Germans to persecute Jews, blackmailed hiding Jews (and their Polish protectors too), murdered them. Polish Resistance considered it a crime and treason, and a number of such persons was executed. Unfortunately, antisemitism was very strong in Poland at the time and such incidents were far too numerous. Every nations has its parcel of rogues and under Nazi brutal occupation that scum were able to operate freely, with German blessing.
Polish antisemitism had also many faces - one of the most active agents saving Jews was Zofia Kossak-Szczucka, a writer and declared antisemite, co-founder of Żegota (a branch of Polish Resistance saving Jews); in her Manifesto she declared that Jews were still enemies of Poles, but whoever helped Germans in killing Jews had no riight to call himself a Pole or a Catholic.
Spare Change
Banned
Hitler did not want a general European War in 1939 and was surprised that that his demands on Poland lead to war in the West.
If Poland gives in I assume besides losing territory it become a satellite/ally of the Nazi's.
Their would be no Nazi-Soviet Pact in 1939. No Polish Guarantee by the Western Allies.
Hitler never let a year go by without doing something. 1934-5 Mass Conscription. 1936 Rhineland, 1937 Austria, 1938 Czechslovakia, 1939 Poland.
So does Hitler try for 1940? Perhaps some sort of territorial partition and Oil deal with the Soviets. If he could get the Soviets to agree. Perhaps he declares war early despite the protestations of his generals. Perhaps his generals can convince him to hold off until 1942.
My guess sometime between 1940-1942 Hitler would declare war on the Soviet Union. This is what he always wanted to do. This is what many Non-Germans in the West wanted to happen. "Let them fight it out and I hope they both lose."
A one front war would be different, but no less brutal.
If Poland gives in I assume besides losing territory it become a satellite/ally of the Nazi's.
Their would be no Nazi-Soviet Pact in 1939. No Polish Guarantee by the Western Allies.
Hitler never let a year go by without doing something. 1934-5 Mass Conscription. 1936 Rhineland, 1937 Austria, 1938 Czechslovakia, 1939 Poland.
So does Hitler try for 1940? Perhaps some sort of territorial partition and Oil deal with the Soviets. If he could get the Soviets to agree. Perhaps he declares war early despite the protestations of his generals. Perhaps his generals can convince him to hold off until 1942.
My guess sometime between 1940-1942 Hitler would declare war on the Soviet Union. This is what he always wanted to do. This is what many Non-Germans in the West wanted to happen. "Let them fight it out and I hope they both lose."
A one front war would be different, but no less brutal.