Questions Concerning Arms Making and Industrialization in East Asia [Circa.1896]

I would like to ask the help of you kind people in answering a few of my questions. This would in-turn help me create or at the very least create a plausible scenario of another world power in asia that would butt-heads with Japan during the OTL WW2 pacific war.

First Query
[Making Guns] -

What does it take to support an Industry located in South East Asia centered on weapons making, particularly making guns, cannons plus the munitions they used during 1896.

Is it possible for the Sultanate of Sulu or Brunei or even Siam to create and support the above mention industries.

Second Query
[Hiring Foreigners] -

I red about Japan that during the Meiji revolution they begun hiring foreigners to help them catch up with the rest of Europe, industry and military-wise.

[THANKS in advance.]

Are these people individuals that can be hire without too much diplomatic repercussion provided that they don't die in your country while teaching or building stuff?
 
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I would like to ask the help of you kind people in answering a few of my questions. This would in-turn help me create or at the very least create a plausible scenario of another world power in asia that would butt-heads with Japan during the OTL WW2 pacific war.

First Query
[Making Guns] -

What does it take to support an Industry located in South East Asia centered on weapons making, particularly making guns, cannons plus the munitions they used during 1896.

Is it possible for the Sultanate of Sulu or Brunei or even Siam to create and support the above mention industries.

Second Query
[Hiring Foreigners] -

I red about Japan that during the Meiji revolution they begun hiring foreigners to help them catch up with the rest of Europe, industry and military-wise.

[THANKS in advance.]

Are these people individuals that can be hire without too much diplomatic repercussion provided that they don't die in your country while teaching or building stuff?

I think China could be a power in East Asia, I think Korea could be a superpower in the Asiapacific if it was not divided into two and I think Korea can Meijify and challenge Japan.
 
In 1896, gun founding is a bloody complicated business. To be able to sustain an arms industry even masking relatively simple pieces (field guns, light naval armament), you will require (either as import suppliers or on hand):

steelworks with modern blast furnaces and the ability to refine and precisely alloy steel

the metallurgical industry to supply the additives required

machine shops that can turn out rifled barrels, breech blocks, shells and mechanical parts

the infrastructure to produce and maintain those machine tools and power the shops, either electrically or by mechanical transmission

cokeries to feed your furnaces

a fairly basic chemical industry to produce explosives and various other substances required for fuses and lubricants

coal and iron mines

And not to forget: rubber works, a (vegetable) oil refining industry and wood workshops.

This is not beyond the ability of even a smallish country - the Netherlands and Belgium had arms industries. But it is hardly trivial. THe big problem to overcome will not be the top tier of expertise. Nineteenth-century Europeans tended to travel widely, and largely unopposed and unhassled. If an engineer or gunner wanted to go to China, Siam or Hawaii, he could. The main problem will be importing or creating the mid-level skill. Japan in 1896 still could not produce a lot of the more demanding things (like large-calibre guns and capital ships) at home, and they had been modernising for five decades by that point. If you are not born into an industrial infrastructure, it is very hard to acquire the necessary skills and mental habits. You'll need veterans of heavy industry with a Kiplingesque "charm for making riflemen from mud" to pull it off.
 
In 1896, gun founding is a bloody complicated business. To be able to sustain an arms industry even making relatively simple pieces (field guns, light naval armament), you will require (either as import suppliers or on hand):

steelworks with modern blast furnaces and the ability to refine and precisely alloy steel

the metallurgical industry to supply the additives required

machine shops that can turn out rifled barrels, breech blocks, shells and mechanical parts

the infrastructure to produce and maintain those machine tools and power the shops, either electrically or by mechanical transmission

cokeries to feed your furnaces

a fairly basic chemical industry to produce explosives and various other substances required for fuses and lubricants

coal and iron mines

And not to forget: rubber works, a (vegetable) oil refining industry and wood workshops.

This is not beyond the ability of even a smallish country - the Netherlands and Belgium had arms industries. But it is hardly trivial. THe big problem to overcome will not be the top tier of expertise. Nineteenth-century Europeans tended to travel widely, and largely unopposed and unhassled. If an engineer or gunner wanted to go to China, Siam or Hawaii, he could. The main problem will be importing or creating the mid-level skill. Japan in 1896 still could not produce a lot of the more demanding things (like large-calibre guns and capital ships) at home, and they had been modernising for five decades by that point. If you are not born into an industrial infrastructure, it is very hard to acquire the necessary skills and mental habits. You'll need veterans of heavy industry with a Kiplingesque "charm for making riflemen from mud" to pull it off.

Exactly. People tend to forget that something like an arms industry does not exist in a vacuum; it is part of an industrial ecosystem, without which it could not function. For your intended country to support an arms industry it needs to have the rest of the ecosystem as well; you would have to do a Meiji there as well.

The best candidate for this is China, of course. They have the population base, the resources, and some industry already; if you get rid of the reactionaries in charge (i.e. the Dowager Empress and her supporters) and put someone more progressive in charge to push things along you could have the Chinese be a much more serious opponent than IOTL.

Next possibility would be Korea. Unfortunately for them the Japanese already have designs on them, and being right next door, so to speak, makes them an easy target. If the Koreans can overcome their dislike of the Japanese (and the Japanese can be persuaded to treat them as something approaching equals) then perhaps they can come to a mutually beneficial arrangement, wherein Korea supplies raw materials in exchange for Japanese manufactures, for instance. Once they acquire industry of their own they can arrange to be treated as a junior partner in a Japanese-Korean alliance, which will benefit both parties greatly. The butterflies from this will be very large and numerous ...

Next possibility is the Philippines. They have the advantages of a large population and a relatively isolated position, which means they won't need a large military and can devote proportionately more to development. If they can throw off the Spanish yoke and receive US and/or European aid they can become a much more serious obstacle to Japanese agression.

Southeast Asia is at this time firmly under the thumbs of the British and French, who are not about to let the natives have arms, let alone an arms industry. The same is even truer of Indonesia and the Dutch.

Australia is a slightly different case. As a Dominion it has the freedom to develope arms industries if it so desires. The difficulty here is the small population base, which limits the size of its indutries. They will end up producing small quantities of high quality arms, as IOTL. IOTL they made as much of a contribution toward fighting the Japanese as could be expected given their resources; much more than that is probably beyond their capability.
 
Many Thanks for the Gun Industry Answers.

From what I know in order to have a thriving industrial-eco system a stable source of Coal, Iron and labourers are required, oil would become a major player later in the 20th century.

Do you guys think the Sultanate of Sulu would have at the very least met the requirements for making a subtle gun and steel industry Circa.1836? They would be selling their guns to mostly to the chinese, korean, japanese and sometimes the colonist from australia.

Their Territories at this moment in time is the island of mindanao, the jolo group of islands, the northern part of borneo Sulu.
 

Sumeragi

Banned
Korea is really the tricky question here. The "victories" that Korea had over France in Byeonginyangyo and over the US in Shinmiyangyo led Korea to be a lot more isolationist. A western vicotry in either of those two conflicts might have opened up Korea, allowing it to industrialize a bit faster than in OTL while obtaining "international" relationship experiences. That might tip the balance so that Korea would be able to at least stall or even defend against Japan's plans against it.
 
Many Thanks for the Gun Industry Answers.

From what I know in order to have a thriving industrial-eco system a stable source of Coal, Iron and labourers are required, oil would become a major player later in the 20th century.

Do you guys think the Sultanate of Sulu would have at the very least met the requirements for making a subtle gun and steel industry Circa.1836? They would be selling their guns to mostly to the chinese, korean, japanese and sometimes the colonist from australia.

Their Territories at this moment in time is the island of mindanao, the jolo group of islands, the northern part of borneo Sulu.

Wait, 1836? Is that a typo or a date back in the timeline? Gunfounding with 1836 technology is something that most East Asian countries can do. Of courtse, the question is how a territory that is comparatiovely underdeveloped comes to be a supplier of industrial goods to much more highly developed areas. If I wanted to set up an export-oriented foundry in that part of Asia in 1836, I'd pick Calcutta or Bombay, or somewhere in Guangdong or Fujian.

Sulu has both politics and economics against it, but I suppose if you can address the political side - create a vigorously effective, modernising government intent on emulating the West - you can beat economics to an extent. Still, they'd likely need to import a lot of their industrial hardware, so think of an export to funds that dependence.
 
Siam is a great choice as the OP was asking about countries in South East Asia. Burma is another option although the British at this stage are starting to become more aggressive. Both Laos and Cambodia are irrelevant because of occupation by other powers or the negligible economic base to start with. Another option would be Vietnam and may be easier for a POD with their proximity to Chinese commercial centres.
 
From what I know in order to have a thriving industrial-eco system a stable source of Coal, Iron and labourers are required, oil would become a major player later in the 20th century.

Charcoal can do (at least before the late 19th century), instead of subterraneous coal. But then, abundant forests are required for charcoal production to be sufficient. Sweden and the Urals used charcoal massively well into the 20th century.
 
Charcoal can do (at least before the late 19th century), instead of subterraneous coal. But then, abundant forests are required for charcoal production to be sufficient. Sweden and the Urals used charcoal massively well into the 20th century.

Forests wouldn't be the problem, would they? But charcoal can be produced with a low-tech skill base, it is labour-intensive and its raw material is widely dispersed. Like rubber. Think of the history of the rubber industry in the late nineteenth century - I get a very dystopic vibe coming off of any Philippine or Siamese heavy industry during that period. Charcoal quotas on inland tribes, labour recruiting expeditions, hostage taking... ouch.
 
Forests wouldn't be the problem, would they? But charcoal can be produced with a low-tech skill base, it is labour-intensive and its raw material is widely dispersed. Like rubber. Think of the history of the rubber industry in the late nineteenth century - I get a very dystopic vibe coming off of any Philippine or Siamese heavy industry during that period. Charcoal quotas on inland tribes, labour recruiting expeditions, hostage taking... ouch.

The would easily equate in a country with expansionist tendency, right? Would it sound like this...

"I heard there is a lot of woodlands in brunei, let's go buy their lumber! Or better yet lets just mobilize the army and take over!"
 
The would easily equate in a country with expansionist tendency, right? Would it sound like this...

"I heard there is a lot of woodlands in brunei, let's go buy their lumber! Or better yet lets just mobilize the army and take over!"

It's pretty much what I'd expect, though with the most püroductive forests being inland, I would rather envision a near-genoicidal campaign agaist tribal societies there than an outright "big" war. At least initially.

Of course, sooner or later that kind of behaviour will rouse the conscience of the Western world. How dare they invade, enslave and exploit defenseless natives?! That's OUR job!
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
The would easily equate in a country with expansionist tendency, right? Would it sound like this...

"I heard there is a lot of woodlands in brunei, let's go buy their lumber! Or better yet lets just mobilize the army and take over!"

Army? Depending where they are coming from... I'm not sure what the power projection capability of ANY of the South-East Asian states is in this period.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I should say Sulu, since the Sultanate is geographically nearest to Borneo. On the plus side they would get Sabah later in the 1658. This way they would have a nice staging area.

But i'm still weaving the timeline which would start from the arrival of Magellan in the Philippines [1521] until the 20th century.

Concerning an Army, I would speculate that the Sultanate of Sulu have a sizable number of troops to deter Spain from expanding further into Mindanao.

So somewhere in the 1712 the Sultanate of Sulu needing more resources would gather their soldiers in Sabah and wage a short but bloody war against the Sultanate of Brunei, which is already at its decline. At this time only the Dutch and Spain is present in the South East Asia while the British empire is still subjugating India.
 
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