Rumsfeldia: Fear and Loathing in the Decade of Tears
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And not doing it risks millions of lives.
I doubt that, given how badly Cuba went. Remember? Crappy small arms? Executing wounded?
You still wouldnt want the CV to have access to the warheads though.
Basically what I'm trying to see is this: If the CV occupies the lower 48 successfully, and all of America's strategic nukes were destroyed before their takeover, how long would it be before the CV are able to regain access to strategic nuclear arms? I know this isn't the direction Drew wants to take with this TL, but nonetheless, it's an interesting alternate take on the timeline. The CV, being a war torn pariah, facing off against the EU and the USSR as TTL's version of mega-Iran.
Bookmark1995
Banned
Well, what do you mean by occupy? As in, they are able to bring the Northeast, Libertarian West, California, Texas, AND the Pacific Northwest under their heel?
And they did this WITHOUT nuclear weapons (except for some battlefield nukes)?
Well, my guess is, if they reconquered ALL of the lower 48, they would ruling over a smoldering ruin, since actually trying to bring those places to heel would require huge amounts of investment and trade. Also, the rebels against their tyranny would have likely destroyed valuable infrastructure to keep the CSA from having anything of value.
Also, millions of skilled engineers would have either been killed, or gone into exile in Canada or Europe.
Also, no one would ever trade with them (which would really make them North Korea, plus the devastation of the OTL USSR during World War II).
So, it would be YEARS before they could rebuild their country, let alone acquire the technology to rebuild strategic arms. And if they chose to prioritize militarization over economic development, they risk being toppled by another rebellion. And that's only if the outside world doesn't try and invade them first.
So, it would be unlikely for them to be able to get nukes.
Wouldn't that beat the point?
True, but it would mean the Coe junta would...
...oh...
wait, yeah, okay, my bad. I thought you were arguing the CVs couldn't launch the missiles. Turns out you meant the USAF sabotaging the missiles.
Yeah, there would be locks on the silo doors and entrances, enough supplies to wait out a siege, that sort of thing. And it would actually be possible to remove the warhead and then sabotage the missiles. You might even be able to take the warheads with you and flee if you don't have the CVs outside.
Still, that such a situation has actually occurred ITTL is a definition of a nightmare scenario. No wonder the Canadians were freaking out and McKinnock was unable to sleep. Even if the CVs can't launch the missiles, they still have bombers - or they can take a page out of the PJO and drive truck nukes into their targets. The big issue is keeping the nuclear weapons - and any facilities capable of making more - out of their hands.
Which begs a question, what happened to the 'nuke factories', or whatever you call weapons-grade nuclear fuel breeder reactors? Even if there are no nukes, the CVs can just grab a hold of a couple of those and wait for them to churn out a few nukes before resuming the nuclear bombardment. They may be religious zealots, but there's bound to be a few of them who understands how to handle nuclear material - or someone who does and is willing to work with them.
Ratmancampidori
Banned
I beleive that most of the United States nukes were manufactured in Texas, a state that has thankfully seceeded from the United States and are capable of holding out against any CV onslaught.
Especially given that if Texas looks remotely like it would fall to a CV assault, the much stronger Mexican army is waiting in the wings.
Man, this is a messed up TL when Mexico has a good chance of whupping US forces.
CVBall: Gib nukes!
Texasball: Kiss my grits, @$$h*le.
CVBall: Why you little...
MexicoBall: ¿Tu messing with my hombre, stupid gringo?
Bookmark1995
Banned
In Rummyhorror, it was stated that much of the facilities were sabotaged by those still loyal to the Constitution.
If they could still make nukes, it is likely Denver and New York would have been glassed long ago.
Still, "CVs with nukes," will be one of those scary WI of history.
That's another positive of this TL: A Mexico that can stand on its own two legs, rather then be a pawn of the US.
Ratmancampidori
Banned
One of the parts of this timeline I’m most interested in are the future relations between Mexico and Texas, particulary cultural exchange.
Ironic, in this timeline Texas fought a war to become independent from Mexico only to become its closest ally. In some ways it parallels America and Britain.
For some reason I keep thinking of this commercial.
Bookmark1995
Banned
In the words of Lord Palmerston, "Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests." This TL has proved this to be very true.
TTL, America's once cordial relationship with Western Europe was destroyed, because Rummy's interests relied on keeping America permanently fearful of a communist menace that would obliterate FREEDOM if given the chance, and Western Europe's détente with Ryzhkov challenged that whole plan.
Ron Paul, Mickey Leland, and Ross Perot are three people who under normal (OTL) circumstances would have never worked under the same roof. The corruption of Starke Taylor's government, plus the horrors of the CV, have pushed the three into a weird coalition.
Mexico's TTL interest is not being swamped with millions of refugees, nor being invaded by a clerical-fascist America. So, they aid Texas, their former province.
I can imagine Texans, having had their culture stomped on by Rumsfeld, will be heavily influenced by Mexican culture, until their cultural scene recovers.
Actually, I can see a revival of Texan culture, even when closely tied to Mexico. Yes, there's the whole "independence from Mexico" deal, but they'll underplay it for the sake of good relations. Texans might emphasize a sort of Tex-Mex slant to their identity, but bear in mind, these are mostly former American citizens; a lot of migrant workers got evicted or ran away from the USA under Rumsconomics (Rummy's version of Reaganomics), thus reducing the local Hispanic element. The Hispanic element might recover under an independent Texas, but a stronger Mexican economy means people are less willing to emigrate.
Honestly Canada needs to develop their own nuclear weapons in this situation especially with the CV next door now. Canada is very capable of developing their own nuclear weapons.
They'd start world war 3 sooner or later if they did somehow secure intercontinental nukes and control over the continental US in my view. People who committed nuclear holocaust on other Americans are not going to think in terms of MAD and likely would give an ultimatum to the USSR at some point. I think it goes without saying the USSR wouldn't capitulate and may instead consider striking first as the CSA demonstrated their willingness to commit to nuclear holocaust. And the CSA seems like the society that would have starting WW3 as part of their policy.
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Bookmark1995
Banned
You're right, they probably would have unleashed nuclear Armageddon if they had the chance.
Again, if they managed to conquer all of the lower 48, then they would have done so much damaged to national infrastructure that it would have made rebuilding their nuclear capabilities almost impossible.
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In any case, the fact that the CSA would have caused nuclear Armageddon if given the chance is why I don't imagine the Second Reconstruction (as I imagine they would call the post-CV era) will be particularly kind for the pro-Rumsfeld/CV areas of the US.
Over a century after the fall of the Confederate States of America, the Deep South has committed atrocities even the most depraved slaveholder would have found appalling.
A generation after the Civil Rights Movement and Lyndon Johnson's War on Poverty, Southern and Middle America have created the most violent, oppressive, anti-black, and anti-poor person regime in American history.
To the outside world, it took very little for Southern Americans, having political viewpoints that are highly racist and reactionary, to be willing to commit atrocities against their own citizens. When given the chance, they were willing to throw people into mass graves, and unleash nukes on areas of liberalism.
The failure of the first Reconstruction will be seen as what allowed for this horrible mindset to not only be preserved in the South, but fester elsewhere, and so the outside world will not give the former CVs any slap-on-the-wrist, but an occupation to finally obliterate this mindset once and for all.
If you ever have the time I would love to see vignettes and examples of this.
Mutual bonding over strong, prideful national identities, a romantic view of lawless bandits and going around fully armed in funny hats.
The one time when ‘The British are coming’ will be shouted again in Boston’s streets, except this time to the sound of cheers.
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