Sardinia-Piedmont played a crucial role in uniting the Italian Peninsula. Could Serbia fulfill a similar role in the Balkan Peninsula by uniting the southern Slavs into a single kingdom? Would they just unite Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia or would it grow beyond what eventually became Yugoslavia to include Bulgaria or Albania or other Balkan nationalities?
Serbia: The Sardinia of the Balkans?
- Thread starter The Kiat
- Start date
The problem here is that there is no real uniting factor for the south slavs, Bulgarians, Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, Montenegrins, and Albanians don't really see themselves as being one people and creating circumstances where they do is difficult unless it's in some other empire like the Ottomans or the Byzantines.
Razgriz 2K9
Banned
And even then, they nearly did try to incorporate both in the 40's and 50's...how did that deal fall through anyway?
dead_wolf
Banned
In regards to Bulgaria it was a case of Soviet meddling, as a united Balkans would be strong enough to be effectively independent from Moscow, and differences between the Serbian and Bulgarian Yugoslavists over varying issues, mostly the Macedonian Question.
Mookie
Banned
Sardinia Piedmont didnt exterminate those who didnt want to participate in Italy.
Serbia can never participate in such a role ever again. Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia would never accept such a thing. Albania even less.
Montenegro is leaping ahead of Serbia in everything since independence.
For Greece/Bulgaria I see apsolutely no reason to want to join such a creation.
Serbs did that with Kingdom of SHS and Jugoslavia (both comunist and royal) and it ended terribly, with opression in peacetime, sometimes extermination in peacetime as well, colonisation, and wartime open extermination.
For the original poster, the case of Yugoslavia IOTL is what happens when there is an unsuccessful unification. Serbia tried, and failed, in being Piedmont or Prussia.
Mookie, you don't get to do that. You don't get to use atrocities that happened during the 90's and retroactively apply them to centuries of co-habitation.
Mookie, you don't get to do that. You don't get to use atrocities that happened during the 90's and retroactively apply them to centuries of co-habitation.
Mookie
Banned
I didnt mention the atrocities of the 90's.
I mentioned the pogroms of Kosovo albanians and Bosniaks in 1912 in Plav and Gusinje.
I mentioned the taking of land in 1919 "land reform"
The settling of Serb veterans in Kosovo and "reformed" land.
The extermination of Sahovici and its 3000 inhabitants in 1924.
Its the main reason why there wont be any Yugoslavia ever again, especialy not one started by Serbia
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What are you talking about? For starters, Plav and Gusinje are in southern Montenegro, and 1912 is before unification.
If there was a land reform during the 1919, this is the first time I am hearing about it.
The settling of Serb veterans? A blanket statement if I ever saw one.
As for Sahovici, likewise in Montenegro.
PS. All the alleged massacres I found from bosniak sources. Forgive me if I am a bit sceptical. I would need international and credible sources for me to fully agree that it happened.
If there was a land reform during the 1919, this is the first time I am hearing about it.
The settling of Serb veterans? A blanket statement if I ever saw one.
As for Sahovici, likewise in Montenegro.
PS. All the alleged massacres I found from bosniak sources. Forgive me if I am a bit sceptical. I would need international and credible sources for me to fully agree that it happened.
Mookie
Banned
Plav and Gusinje were taken by combined forces of Serbia and Montengro. And they are in Sandzak or Trgoviste region. Right away 3000 more influential people were killed.
12 000 were force converted.
1919 was "land reform", 97.8% of land was owned by Bosniaks, that was taken by states and given to Serbian veterans as payment.
As for Sahovici, that was during "unification" in full peacetime. No war was waged on anyone in 1924.
http://books.google.ba/books?id=sW8...Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=sahovici massacre&f=false
Here is your source, by montengrin whose father participated in the killings.
I am sorry, but I don't consider Djilas an unbiased source, him being a communist leader in Second Yugoslavia who had vested interest in defaming the First Yugoslavia, as well as being revolutionary during the 30s against the democratic government elected during the first Yugoslavia.
Furthermore, he is the only source that claims that the atrocities happened. As such, I have a right to be sceptical.
Furthermore, he is the only source that claims that the atrocities happened. As such, I have a right to be sceptical.
I was thinking late 19th Century, perhaps the 20th Century before the Great War.
Mookie
Banned
I supose you would like a document from killers themselves. I wonder if there is any document from last war about ethnic cleansing being commited. Its always good to write in paper something that can get you hanged.
But still, there are a few.
Here is a report from Pavle Djurisic:
And here are instructions from Draza, admitedly writen on start of the war, but still show what was the plan:
I supose now you would like the same document, written in English
That is the action (war crime) of rogue chetnik groups during Second World War in 1943, not First Yugoslavia's government of which we were speaking...
Also, do you really want to open that can of worms? Atrocities committed against Serbs (by Bosnians, amongst others) during the WW II are well-documented and internationally confirmed...
I think that the smart thing is for me to abandon further discussion. There is no use. You are firmly entrenched in your demonizing of Serbs and I am only liable to become less objective the further we discuss.
Also, do you really want to open that can of worms? Atrocities committed against Serbs (by Bosnians, amongst others) during the WW II are well-documented and internationally confirmed...
I think that the smart thing is for me to abandon further discussion. There is no use. You are firmly entrenched in your demonizing of Serbs and I am only liable to become less objective the further we discuss.
Mookie
Banned
Well you refute any document provided to you.
You only find Bosniak sources.
I give you non-Bosniak, not good enough, man wasnt a true Serb
Thats why he wrote badly about his father I supose.
I sure do. Tell me of one war-crime commited in WW2 by Bosniaks against Serbs.
Somewhat. Austria lost control of Lombardy and Venetia to Sardinia. True, Sardinia had help from France for one and Prussia for the other, but it's not to say Serbia could not have received similar aid from, let's just use Russia as an example. Could Russia have helped? Yes. Would they? That's another matter. If they did, then it might not be much more than forcing the Turks to cede Bosnia to Serbia.