state of Ireland

[Tyr]

Ah yes, the Plantations of Ireland were a benevolent move. Oh, and the denying Catholics political rights. Ah yes, the United Kingdom was nothing but benevolent to the Irish...

Damned Irish American propeganda. I thought people were beginning to know better then that on this forum.
This has been gone over a billion times.
Catholics not having the vote for a while- nothing to do with Ireland. As mentioned many times by those who know of the time period in question it made perfect sense for the time with the catholic threat to the crown.
Plantations- err...WTF? Thats nothing to do with the UK. That was long before the UK even existed never mind Ireland. Besides though, there was nothing especially bad there for the time, it was common practice for the land of disloyal nobles to be given over to loyal ones. Happened all over Europe.

Americans always seem to forget they were even more guilty of being anti-catholic and the way they treat native Americans...

edit- lol, lots of others jumped on too. There is hope for the forum!

 

[Nicole]

The Catholics from before the days of the plantation until after the last jacobite rising britain were dangerous people who wanted to destroy the country, thats why they were denied rights. Guy Fawkes hardly wanted freedom of religion, he wanted to destroy Protestant rule, also the UK ended slavery how long before the USA?

Massachusetts ended slavery before the UK... and I never brought the US into this. Catholics plotted to destroy the state because the Anglicans were plotting to destroy them.

Of course, all the evil British working classes had the vote and plenty of money whilst all this was going on in Ireland.

Oh, I never said the English weren't oppressed as well... but English Anglicans had at least theoretical rights, which the Irish Catholics did not.

Anyhow, the Irish were just our version of your Native Americans. They, too, were often viewed as potential subversives, occupying land that the govt. wanted.

I consider that oppressive too, really... the destruction of the Native Americans is one of the most shameful events in history.
And irrelevant to British treatment of the Irish.

Catholics not having the vote for a while- nothing to do with Ireland. As mentioned many times by those who know of the time period in question it made perfect sense for the time with the catholic threat to the crown.

The Catholic threat to the crown only existed because the English oppressed them. And as the majority of Irish were Catholic, I think Ireland certainly ties into it.

Plantations- err...WTF? Thats nothing to do with the UK. That was long before the UK even existed never mind Ireland. Besides though, there was nothing especially bad there for the time, it was common practice for the land of disloyal nobles to be given over to loyal ones. Happened all over Europe.

Oh come on, the Plantations were done in the period where England and Scotland were TECHNICALLY independant, but they were de facto united.
And as for it being common practice, refer to my comment about Catholics being disloyal above (because the English Protestants forced them to it), and deporting entire populations (not just nobles) was not common practice. Note that Ulster was the most Gaelic province of Ireland until the 1600s...
And just because other nations did it doesn't make it less oppressive.

Americans always seem to forget they were even more guilty of being anti-catholic and the way they treat native Americans...

Did I ever SAY Americans were better? And I am Catholic, and am aware of the anti-Catholic history of the region... Massachusetts was founded by a man who wanted to stop the Jesuits from forming the Kingdom of the Antichrist, after all...

 

[NapoleonXIV]

The French win the Napoleonic wars, occupying Britain in 1815, but won't allow Ireland to become independent, in fact turning it into a second Spain when it rebels, which festers for decades and causes much earlier and more widespread Irish emigration to US.

America becomes a more quickly rising power in the world than in OTL due mainly to this increased Irish immigration, Americans, goaded by their large Irish population, covertly supply Irish independence movements and overtly pressure Franco-Britain to grant Irish independence.

When the potato famine comes along the British Republic's response is even worse than in OTL, prompting even more emigration, worldwide condemnation of the Franco-Brits and a massive humanitarian aid movement by the US (which also brings in thousands of Americans sympathetic to the Irish rebels and even more aid for them) .

The Franco-Brits, facing other economic problems in their worldwide Empire and wishing to patch up relations with an increasingly hostile America, grant Irish Independence in 1860. The Irish Parliament, now dominated by Americans who came in to help with the famine, votes to join America as a state in 1861, becoming the only American state with a Parliament and PM instead of a Legislature and Governor.

(American slavery is abolished in 1830, when the Louisiana compromise, worked out by John C. Calhoun and Patrick Finnegan McMurtry, stipulates that noone may be born into slavery and allows all slaves to purchase their freedom at a price set by the government. There is no ACW)

 

[Highlander]

Harry Harrison?

Yeah, I'm confused as to who this is as well.

 

[NapoleonXIV]

Yeah, I'm confused as to who this is as well.

A very, very good SF author who, for mysterious reasons, wrote what is arguably the worst AH trilogy ever written, the Stars and Stripes series. This is probably the most excreable example of a 'wankfest' ever published, wherein the US patches up the ACW and attacks Britain, thoroughly defeating Albion with steam powered tanks among other things.

Harry Harrison, OTOH, is known to the SF world as the creator of the characters Slippery Jim deGriz, AKA the Stainless Steel Rat and Jason dinAlt of the Deathworld series. He is known to the general public as the author of 'Make Room, Make Room' the story on which Soylent Green is based.

It is a mystery to most of us as to why he wrote such a bad book, esp since he has written acceptable AH in the past

 

[David bar Elias]

A very, very good SF author who, for mysterious reasons, wrote what is arguably the worst AH trilogy ever written, the Stars and Stripes series. This is probably the most excreable example of a 'wankfest' ever published, wherein the US patches up the ACW and attacks Britain, thoroughly defeating Albion with steam powered tanks among other things.

Harry Harrison, OTOH, is known to the SF world as the creator of the characters Slippery Jim deGriz, AKA the Stainless Steel Rat and Jason dinAlt of the Deathworld trilogy. He is known to the general public as the author of 'Make Room, Make Room' the story on which Soylent Green is based.

It is a mystery to most of us as to why he wrote such a bad book, esp since he has written acceptable AH in the past

Also currently being spoofed in my "The Producers (of AH.com)" in the Writer's Forum......

 

[Darkling]

Massachusetts ended slavery before the UK... and I never brought the US into this. Catholics plotted to destroy the state because the Anglicans were plotting to destroy them.

The Massachusetts courts determined slavery to be illegal in 1783, 11 years after the English courts had already reached that conclusion.

 

[JimmyJimJam]

rule, also the UK ended slavery how long before the USA?

Widespread indentured servitude, ferocious colonialism, massacres and so forth can't even compare to slavery, is that what you're saying?

 

[Keenir]

Widespread indentured servitude, ferocious colonialism, massacres and so forth can't even compare to slavery, is that what you're saying?

well, by that logic, the US was even worse....not only did we practice those well into hte 20th century, we also had a dumping ground for those who had a disease. (the leper colony in Hawaii)

 

[Nicole]

well, by that logic, the US was even worse....not only did we practice those well into hte 20th century, we also had a dumping ground for those who had a disease. (the leper colony in Hawaii)

I think the British had leper colonies too- they were once very common, though that doesn't make them right... (And Leprosy is a danger to people around them, unlike Catholicism)

 

[Keenir]

And as for it being common practice, refer to my comment about Catholics being disloyal above (because the English Protestants forced them to it),

Only one thing comes to mind: that's like saying Israel forces Palestinians to become suicide bombers wielded against Israelis.

 

[67th Tigers]

The British tended to run the Empire through local elites, and many(not all)of the peoples were better off.

This was the case in Ireland. With the exception of the Desmond's, O'Neill's and O'Donnell's lands, there was simply a replacement of Lords who'd backed the Spanish with more reliable Lords.

The Desmond's lands were devastated by the Bubonic Plague, brought by the invading Spanish-Italian army they invited, bringing about a labour shortage in Munster which caused in influx of immigrants.

The O'Neill's and O'Donnell's lands though were a different matter (being the modern Northern Ireland). The O'Neill's and O'Donnell's refused to reclaim their lands, and Chichester gave the lands to his Officers from the Irish Army. The Ulster settlements never really took off until the Border Reivers were exiled there.

So, Lords lost their lands because they rebelled, most obviously shown by the fact that Catholic Lords who didn't rebel kept their lands and seats in Parliament. The majority of the population carried on living as before.