Presumably he had better knowledge of the coastal area around Dakar which in the OTL was down to Cunningham remebering surfing in the area previoulsy.....
The Whale has Wings
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Presumably he had better knowledge of the coastal area around Dakar which in the OTL was down to Cunningham remebering surfing in the area previoulsy.....
It doesnt even need that, its a pretty obvious thing to at least TRY, given the geography. And theer are plenty of bored pilots sitting on the carriers to do a little basic recon. If both of the landings fail, you arent worse off.
The Vichy situation muct have been quite tricky; in OTL they bluffed DeGaulle into giving up after trying the blatantly obvious (given the response to the attemps to negotiate, it should have been blindingly obvious they would have to fight); while they have cleared out some of the non-Vichy people, they cant just replace all the troops, so they know a lot of their men are at least potentially disloyal..they have locals and probably some of their own men in jail, the locals already rioted over Vichy, if things go badly that will happen again. Since they cant trust any but their recent Vichy troops, just who goes and defends against the invaders? They arent likley to have anything near enough loyal troops, any disloyal ones and the line breaks, they need loyal troops to keep the city held down..
Just apply pressure and that Vichy crust crumbles...but in OTL DeGaulle just gave up.
Of course, one thing to remember is that this is the second landing the British have gotten away with by improvisation.
Now granted, both were ones which were easy (just completely screwed up in OTL). However this will delay them working out how to do landings properly, and at some point they will get burnt by that lack
Now granted, both were ones which were easy (just completely screwed up in OTL). However this will delay them working out how to do landings properly, and at some point they will get burnt by that lack
Mmmhh, Madagascar and Op Ironclad spring to mind....if TTL Menace doesn't see the need for what became LST's, no Marricaibo LST's ready.
The Landing Ship Gantry Derwentdale should still be around but there is a limit to what she can carry in the landing craft when they are hoisted up.
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The LST may still get made as they werent trying to land tanks here, so some sort of LST is obviously useful. What's likely to get affected is the organisation. They were building landing craft already, but its all the special requirements. I'll have to work out which one catches them out first
The LST may still get made as they werent trying to land tanks here, so some sort of LST is obviously useful. What's likely to get affected is the organisation. They were building landing craft already, but its all the special requirements. I'll have to work out which one catches them out first
The LCT's that were being built weren't capable of ocean voyages and OTL Menace showed the need for tanks but tanks couldn't be landed without a port which led to Churchill's order to design something that could land 60 tanks on a hostile shore after an ocean voyage....subsequantly reduced to 20 tanks and so the Boxer class was designed.
Different circumstances have meant no need for tanks so possibly no instruction from Churchill for the larger LST's.....
True enough
Of course, they aren't planning on any large scale landings in the near future
With the exception of USS Yorktown American carriers of the 1930's were named after famous USN ships of the past.
You could use one of the names of the USN's six original frigates:
United States
Constellation
Constitution
President
Congress
Chesapeake
The last would fit by virtue of being a naval battle of the ARW as well. Alternatively a second USS Constitution was planned as one of the Lexington class battlecruisers. Speaking of which the names Lexington, Saratoga and Ranger all come from that group leaving United States, probably more suitable for a class leader, and Constellation. If I ever get round to writing my FAA TL, (not much point given how this one is going), USS Constellation would be the third of the Lexington CV's to serve during WW2.
As you point out the names are a bit random so you could just pick one from Wikipedia's list of USN ship names. Possibilities being:
Alliance
Columbia
America
Independence
Eagle
Peacock
You could introduce your own name into history. At one point some years ago I planned a story featuring the Confederate aircraft carrier CSS Shenandoah.
Finally you could go for the most used fictional American aircraft carrier of them all, the one that always just misses out on being built in real life.
USS Reprisal.
Thanks, thats very useful. Should be an update on what everyone elses navy is building in 1940 soon now Dakar is sorted out.
I know it's useless in this universe but is there any chance of a small nod to the Pykrete project and the HMS Habbukuk?
Hyperion
Banned
You're right on Algeria and Tunisia for the most part.
That being said, with not as much friction between the British and French, and Dakar going better than OTL, and one or two other odd successes compared to OTL, what are the odds that this could sooner shift some of smaller colonies either into the Free French camp sooner, or to a state of neutrality somewhat sooner?
The reason I mentioned Syria and Lebanon, earlier in the timeline it was mentioned those governments sent pro allied signals, but I've seen nothing specifically about those two since. Given the butterflies compared to OTL, I wouldn't think it out of the question for one of them to have permanently joined the Free French sooner than OTL.
That and to be honest, I consider that area, while a successful British/Allied campaign in OTL, to be something that seems to get overlooked in AltHistory projects, and OTL, while successful, I saw it as a bit of a waste of good forces that could have been used either to fight off Rommel, or to possibly make a better stand in Crete. That and I like the idea of being able to raise another division or so of French troops sooner, even if only a light infantry formation. Might not be useable for combat anytime soon, but it might free up then better equipped British/Commonwealth forces for duty elsewhere.
On a more immediate note, how big of a deal will the Free French and Polish gold reserves make? For that matter, how much are we talking anyway? Just a drop in the bucket overall, or is this something that could open the way for a major economic change in WW2?
Another major point, and this is specifically about the Polish gold. Early in, in 1941 and 1942, might this give western Polish govt. in exile a bit of a better hand when working with the British and Americans. Perhaps it could give them a few browny points for when the US or British are dealing with Stalin.
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I am assuming that Tunisia and Algeria have had their leadership replaced in the main with Vichy supporters - they are by far the most important colonoes politically. Others, like Syria, which probably had to be forced into the Vichy camp, are likely to be more liable to turning.
The Free French in TTL are more successful so far, and thats likely to mean more success at persuading other colonies (with the help of a little British pressure
There will be a Free French division in Africa by the end of 1940, and as manpower permits they will be building more.
As to the gold..it was a LOT of gold. Enough to pay for the equipment the Free French need and then some. That will have political implications fairly soon - for a start, the British arent going to waste their reserves taking over the French orders (and the French are likely to play hardball over them more than the British were). For a while at least, the British arent the only game in town for American manufacturers.
25th September
The allies were surprised to find after the surrender of Dakar just how oppressive the Vichy regime had been to the locals. It had been pro-Allied street demonstrations and an unsuccessful naval mutiny that persuaded the Allies earlier in the year that Senegal was fertile ground for the Free French. However the Vichy authorities had responded by appointing a Vichy governor and purging the Free French supporters, many of whom were released from jail after the allies took control of the town. The port had also been reinforced by loyal Vichy troops, but the need to confront the allied landings had stretched these too thin to also allow them to fully control the town, and the growing discontent, and in many cases outright rioting and local mutinies had forced the governor to admit that it was not going to be possible to drive off the allies.
Although the Luftwaffe has been restricting daylight raids to small 'nuisance' attacks by small, heavily escorted formations, today they try again with a large attack on the British Aeroplane works at Filton in Bristol. While the two week respite has allowed the Luftwaffe formations to recover from their low point, it has also allowed Fighter command to fully recover its front line squadrons, and the raid is heavily handled, 12 bombers being shot down by the fighters and AA. The losses seem to convince the Luftwaffe that large daylight raids are not worth the losses in trained bomber crews (who have taken heavy casualties over the last couple of months), and that night bombing is a better use of their resources. It is clear that the old tactics of close escort of bombers by fighters is simply too costly; 12 bombers and 5 fighters conceded for the loss of 7 RAF fighters.
27th September
Today, in the Berlin chancellery, the Japanese ambassador, Saburo Kurusu, put his signature to a tri-partite pact which extends the Rome-Berlin Axis to the Far East. In a move clearly directed at the United States, the three countries pledge themselves to aid one another with "all political, economic and military means" should one of them be attacked by "a power not involved in the European war."
Japan accepts the hegemony of Germany and Italy in Europe, and they in turn recognise Japan's right to organise "the Greater East-Asia Co-prosperity Sphere". The pact contains a clause promising to preserve the status quo in relations with the Soviet Union.
Following the signing of this pact, Hitler secretly orders war production to be geared towards the invasion of Russia.
In Washington, a navy department spokesman said that the pact would not mean any change of policy. The navy, he said, would continue to be based at Pearl Harbor.
29th September
Britain informs Japan that it intends to re-open the Burma Road to China when the current three-month agreement expires on 17 October. The move, announced by Churchill, is the first direct result of the Japan-Axis pact. He told the House of Commons that Britain had originally agreed to ban the transit of war materials from Burma to China while the two sides tried to reach a settlement. Japan had not taken the opportunity and had signed a ten-year pact with the Axis. To cheers from the House the Prime Minister said that in the circumstances Britain could not see its way to renewing the agreement.
30th September
Italian submarine 'Gondar' approaches Alexandria with human torpedoes for an attack on the base. She is located by an RAF Sunderland of No 230 Squadron and sunk by the destroyer HMAS Stuart.
Early in the month the first wolf-pack attacks were directed by Admiral Donitz against the convoy SC2. Five of the 53 ships are sunk. A similar operation is mounted two weeks later against the 40 ships of HX72. The U-boats present include those commanded by the aces Kretschmer, Prien and Schepke. Eleven ships are lost, seven to Schepke's U-100, in one night. The German B-Service is instrumental in directing U-boats to many convoys, where they hold the advantage as they manoeuvre on the surface between the merchantmen and escorts.
This new tactic is of considerable worry to the Royal Navy. While losses in the Atlantic have been high over the last few months, this has been accepted as a necessary short term price to pay for the invasion defence. Now that the invasion has obviously been called off (at least until the Spring), pressure is being applied to allocate the light carriers and many of the escorts back into the Atlantic to reinforce the very minimal current escorts
RN major fleet units disposition, October
Home Fleet : Illustrious(CV), Victorious(CV), Formidable (CV),Colossus(CVL), Resolution(BB), Repulse(BC), Renown(BC), Rodney(BB), KGV (BB), Nelson(BB), Hood(BC)
Plymouth : Revenge (BB)
Gibraltar : Ark Royal(CV), Mars(CVL), Resolution (BB), Barham(BB)
Alexandria : Implacable(CV), Indefatigable(CV), Courageous(CV), Malaya(BB), Royal Sovereign(BB), Ramilles(BB), Warspite(BB), Valiant(BB)
West Indies : Prince of Wales (BB)working up. Theseus (CVL) working up
Far East : Eagle(CVL), HMAS Melbourne
Convoy duty (Atlantic) : Vengeance(CVL), Glory(CVL), Activity(CVE), Hermes (CVL), Ocean(CVL), Edgar(CVL)
Training : Furious(CVL)
Refit : Glorious (CV)
Long Refit : Queen Elizabeth(BB)
The allies were surprised to find after the surrender of Dakar just how oppressive the Vichy regime had been to the locals. It had been pro-Allied street demonstrations and an unsuccessful naval mutiny that persuaded the Allies earlier in the year that Senegal was fertile ground for the Free French. However the Vichy authorities had responded by appointing a Vichy governor and purging the Free French supporters, many of whom were released from jail after the allies took control of the town. The port had also been reinforced by loyal Vichy troops, but the need to confront the allied landings had stretched these too thin to also allow them to fully control the town, and the growing discontent, and in many cases outright rioting and local mutinies had forced the governor to admit that it was not going to be possible to drive off the allies.
Although the Luftwaffe has been restricting daylight raids to small 'nuisance' attacks by small, heavily escorted formations, today they try again with a large attack on the British Aeroplane works at Filton in Bristol. While the two week respite has allowed the Luftwaffe formations to recover from their low point, it has also allowed Fighter command to fully recover its front line squadrons, and the raid is heavily handled, 12 bombers being shot down by the fighters and AA. The losses seem to convince the Luftwaffe that large daylight raids are not worth the losses in trained bomber crews (who have taken heavy casualties over the last couple of months), and that night bombing is a better use of their resources. It is clear that the old tactics of close escort of bombers by fighters is simply too costly; 12 bombers and 5 fighters conceded for the loss of 7 RAF fighters.
27th September
Today, in the Berlin chancellery, the Japanese ambassador, Saburo Kurusu, put his signature to a tri-partite pact which extends the Rome-Berlin Axis to the Far East. In a move clearly directed at the United States, the three countries pledge themselves to aid one another with "all political, economic and military means" should one of them be attacked by "a power not involved in the European war."
Japan accepts the hegemony of Germany and Italy in Europe, and they in turn recognise Japan's right to organise "the Greater East-Asia Co-prosperity Sphere". The pact contains a clause promising to preserve the status quo in relations with the Soviet Union.
Following the signing of this pact, Hitler secretly orders war production to be geared towards the invasion of Russia.
In Washington, a navy department spokesman said that the pact would not mean any change of policy. The navy, he said, would continue to be based at Pearl Harbor.
29th September
Britain informs Japan that it intends to re-open the Burma Road to China when the current three-month agreement expires on 17 October. The move, announced by Churchill, is the first direct result of the Japan-Axis pact. He told the House of Commons that Britain had originally agreed to ban the transit of war materials from Burma to China while the two sides tried to reach a settlement. Japan had not taken the opportunity and had signed a ten-year pact with the Axis. To cheers from the House the Prime Minister said that in the circumstances Britain could not see its way to renewing the agreement.
30th September
Italian submarine 'Gondar' approaches Alexandria with human torpedoes for an attack on the base. She is located by an RAF Sunderland of No 230 Squadron and sunk by the destroyer HMAS Stuart.
Early in the month the first wolf-pack attacks were directed by Admiral Donitz against the convoy SC2. Five of the 53 ships are sunk. A similar operation is mounted two weeks later against the 40 ships of HX72. The U-boats present include those commanded by the aces Kretschmer, Prien and Schepke. Eleven ships are lost, seven to Schepke's U-100, in one night. The German B-Service is instrumental in directing U-boats to many convoys, where they hold the advantage as they manoeuvre on the surface between the merchantmen and escorts.
This new tactic is of considerable worry to the Royal Navy. While losses in the Atlantic have been high over the last few months, this has been accepted as a necessary short term price to pay for the invasion defence. Now that the invasion has obviously been called off (at least until the Spring), pressure is being applied to allocate the light carriers and many of the escorts back into the Atlantic to reinforce the very minimal current escorts
RN major fleet units disposition, October
Home Fleet : Illustrious(CV), Victorious(CV), Formidable (CV),Colossus(CVL), Resolution(BB), Repulse(BC), Renown(BC), Rodney(BB), KGV (BB), Nelson(BB), Hood(BC)
Plymouth : Revenge (BB)
Gibraltar : Ark Royal(CV), Mars(CVL), Resolution (BB), Barham(BB)
Alexandria : Implacable(CV), Indefatigable(CV), Courageous(CV), Malaya(BB), Royal Sovereign(BB), Ramilles(BB), Warspite(BB), Valiant(BB)
West Indies : Prince of Wales (BB)working up. Theseus (CVL) working up
Far East : Eagle(CVL), HMAS Melbourne
Convoy duty (Atlantic) : Vengeance(CVL), Glory(CVL), Activity(CVE), Hermes (CVL), Ocean(CVL), Edgar(CVL)
Training : Furious(CVL)
Refit : Glorious (CV)
Long Refit : Queen Elizabeth(BB)
Hyperion
Banned
So the Free French will have hard cash to throw about, and not suck life out of the British economy in the process.
How will the Polish gold help out the Polish forces and government in exile? Aside from being able to buy their own guns and tanks a bit, maybe they could use it as an early bargaining tactic working with the Russians. We'll give you equipment to help you stay in the fight, if you hand over the Polish POWs and others you have locked up.
I think the western allies did something similar in OTL, but here perhaps they could get a larger handover of Poles.
I'm pretty fond of "Ticonderoga" myself.
Of course it's just a bit provocative of the Americans to be naming their top carriers after battles fought against the British!
But it's probably a smart move for FDR to make in these pre-Pearl Harbor days when any cheap move to placate or bamboozle the isolationists is a small price to pay for getting the actual forces in hand!Since the other two, the Sara and Lex, apparently have precedent in Naval history but the Ti would not, naming the third ship that would hint at the Patriot theme all the more strongly.
Regarding Shenandoah--it's a beautiful name, and there's a factor to consider--it was the name of the first of 5 rigid airships commissioned in the USN, the first one of three made in the USA. The other three that had names (ZR-2 never was named, being wrecked shortly after acceptance, before it could even be moved from its construction site in Britain) all had city names--technically "Los Angeles" was said not to be named after the city but after the angels, because of treaty fine print that said it was not to be used for any warlike purpose. Akron and Macon were frankly named after cities, the latter to flatter Senator Vinson of Georgia into disbursing the funds for the program. In the USN cruisers are traditionally named after cities and the role of the "ZRS" airships, as Rigid Scouts, was supposed to parallel that of a cruiser. So these three names would be pretty much out, even Los Angeles. So that leaves Shenandoah.
Now the typical story of the fate of Naval LTA includes the narrative of jealousy between the "helium heads" and the HTA aviators of the carrier fleets, who obviously prevailed; during the tough, lean budget years of the 1920s and '30s, the Naval aviation budget was seen as a fixed pot and it was a zero-sum war between the divisions of Naval aviation for these scanty spoils. But in fact, many officers moved back and forth between LTA and HTA; notably the corps of HTA pilots for the Akron and Macon (and others, like the last Naval rigid commander, Wiley of the Macon) went on to serve with some distinction in the carrier squadrons and as carrier officers.
So I think there might indeed be a quiet lobby of former LTA officers and others gracious enough in rigid LTA's defeat to honor the first, American-made, ZR-1 "Shenandoah" by naming a carrier accordingly.
Other LTA-related names that might make the short list, especially when/if Americans start using the "heros of the Navy" theme, include Landsdowne (the captain of the Shenandoah, who went down with her) and Moffatt (after the Admiral in charge of the Bureau of Aeronautics--he championed the rigids but also HTA aviation too, and went down with the Akron in 1933)
Sticking to these options Landshark tells us have some precedent then, my personal preference list would run:
Ticonderoga
Shenadoah
Chesapeake
Constitution
Congress
Constellation
Columbia
Independence
The custom that evolved after the war was to start naming new carriers after important historical figures, ideally ones who had done something major either in or for the Navy.
If that tradition gets started early I suppose we'd start with John Paul Jones.
Controversy will dog the steps of any systematic attempt to work the way forward through the catalog of US Naval heros, since it would be quite some time--not until WWII in fact! when in retrospect everyone left standing agrees a given hero is both competent and on the right side--Farragut, who I believe did have some major ships named after him, is a bit of a red flag in the face of Southerners for instance!
It probably won't take long to work their way forward to McKinley, Dewey, and TR!Naming a capital ship after an academic hero like Mahan would be an interestingly cultured move for Americans to make!
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