TL-191 Fridge Logic thread:

[Michael B]

I thought it was pretty well established that TL-191's USA is the USSR to the CSA's Nazi Germany,

The analogy is not a good one on two counts.

1) The USA had territorial claims on the CSA that the USSR did not on Nazi Germany.

2) The differences in technology between the USA and CSA were less than that between the USSR and Nazi Germany.

I would thus take such an analogy with a pinch of salt, especially if it was made by Turtledove

I'd always imagine a cold war arising between the European CPs and the USA after Japan is dealt with.

Not necessarily if they carve the world into spheres of influence; after all ideologically they are not very different.

As a start the spheres would be Latin America to the USA and North Africa and South West Asia to Germany. Sub Saharan Africa could be split with the west coast going to the USA and east to Germany now it or its Ottoman proxy own the Suez Canal. East Asia is easier to reach from the USA to it gets it whilst the Germans take South Asia includes the Dutch East Indies. Australasia falls to whoever can be bothered about it.

Both sides can draw who resources they need from their sphere without bothering the other and thus have no need for the major arms race on our TL. Instead they can drive for the Moon (the Germans certainly would) and beyond.

On course minor powers in each sphere would have to be slapped down, but they would not on their own.

 

[Bakelite Punk]

This is a fairly minor one, but it sticks out to me because I'm going through the books looking for uniform and equipment references to make some TL-191 DBA armies;

He likes talking about machine guns a lot. Apparently machine gunners have trouble surrending occasionaly. Toward the end of the great war it's mentioned that the US infantry are starting to carry light machine guns, presumably the BAR or something similar. Then when the next round rolls around (takes longer for a second round once you're in your thirties you know) the US are back to bolt action rifles and heavy machine guns. Even the confederates, with their fetish for automatic weapons do not have anything like a squad automatic / light machine, just SMGs, assault rifles and HMGs. The British mustn't want to lend out any Brens. Or maybe they did offer but Featherston chose not hear the offer (I believe he can be selectively deaf now and then)

 

[Michael B]

He likes talking about machine guns a lot. Apparently machine gunners have trouble surrending occasionaly.

They are not the only ones who got shot whilst trying to surrender. Confed infantry also shot defeated airmen and armoured car crews. The logic behind the action was that you can only surrender if you fight fair and these individuals hadnt fought fair, ie they killed a lot of Confeds with apparent immunity before their plane got shot down/their armoured car got bogged down in a hole.

 

[Snake Featherston]

They are not the only ones who got shot whilst trying to surrender. Confed infantry also shot defeated airmen and armoured car crews. The logic behind the action was that you can only surrender if you fight fair and these individuals hadnt fought fair, ie they killed a lot of Confeds with apparent immunity before their plane got shot down/their armoured car got bogged down in a hole.

And the first scene of Armstrong Grimes has US soldiers doing the same thing to Confederate airmen.....

 

[Bakelite Punk]

... and snipers

but yeah, both sides must have decided light machine guns weren't worth bothering with.

(and I think Armstrong and company kicked the confederate to death rather than shooting him, they were all unarmed at the time I think?)

 

[Trotsky]

By some accounts machine-gunners had trouble surrendering in France and Flanders, East Prussia and Galicia, Italy and Macedonia, and elsewhere as well.

 

[Xen]

And the first scene of Armstrong Grimes has US soldiers doing the same thing to Confederate airmen.....

A Confederate airman. They got in a lil bit of trouble for it too. Not for the actual crime itself but for possibly lending the Confederacy an excuse to do the same to US airmen.

 

[Michael B]

A Confederate airman. They got in a lil bit of trouble for it too. Not for the actual crime itself but for possibly lending the Confederacy an excuse to do the same to US airmen.

That was at the beginning of the war. By the end with some units like Lavochkin's Looters, anything went.

 

[Bakelite Punk]

I don't think they were too worried about reprisals by that stage.

Ok, I just read this one today, and unless i'm missing something he contradicts himself within a couple of pages;

Hip Rodrigues goes to join the veterans brigade. Robert Quinn tells him he has to go the alcalde's office as military affairs, except the freedom party guards, are government, not party, business.

So off he tootles on the train to Decatur, Texas*, to be met by a Freedom Party Assualt Troop Leader and given a grey uniform.

So the veteran's brigade is part of the party guards?


*Where I more than half expected him to stop to watch a Decatur Commodores game.

 

[Trotsky]

So the veteran's brigade is part of the party guards?

Probably, yes. I also recall Quinn saying in that same paragraph that even the Party guards get their gear through the C.S. Justice Department.

 

[Bakelite Punk]

That's right. I left that bit out because it clouds the issue even further. I get the impression it's the author trying to make the point that the party likes to to pretend they and the governent are not one and the same, but just ends up confusing himself.

 

[Alternatehistoryguy47]

If the CSA obtained a nuclear weapon, then why did they use it in an attempted decapitation strike on Philly? Wouldn't it have made more sense to drop it on the US Army that is trying to break the country in half, just like the Soviets did in Worldwar on the Race?

 

[rvbomally]

If the CSA obtained a nuclear weapon, then why did they use it in an attempted decapitation strike on Philly? Wouldn't it have made more sense to drop it on the US Army that is trying to break the country in half, just like the Soviets did in Worldwar on the Race?

Well, it's either Jake the Snake is crazy and hates the damnyankees that much, or he (and the other CS leaders who called the shots) figured that bombing the invading US Army would only hold them off for so long. The US would just regroup and send another force in, and this time the US can use the CS attack as an excuse to nuke CS armies.

 

[Alternatehistoryguy47]

Well, it's either Jake the Snake is crazy and hates the damnyankees that much, or he (and the other CS leaders who called the shots) figured that bombing the invading US Army would only hold them off for so long. The US would just regroup and send another force in, and this time the US can use the CS attack as an excuse to nuke CS armies.

it still would have bought them valuable time that they needed and perhaps given them a chance to catch their own breaths so that they could regroup. having a large chuck of the army off your back for at least a little while could potentially delay the inevitable even longer.

 

[Snake Featherston]

If the CSA obtained a nuclear weapon, then why did they use it in an attempted decapitation strike on Philly? Wouldn't it have made more sense to drop it on the US Army that is trying to break the country in half, just like the Soviets did in Worldwar on the Race?

Because then the first US nuclear bomb would be dropped on Atlanta....... (This means that had they used it the first US Bomb would have been dropped on Atlanta. Apologies for any miscommunications).

 

[Alternatehistoryguy47]

Because then the first US nuclear bomb would be dropped on Atlanta.......

how could the Confederates have known that in advance? If memory serves, the first they heard of a successful US bomb was when it destroyed Newport News, VA.

 

[Bakelite Punk]

He prefers plot holes to irradiated slag holes?

 

[Snake Featherston]

how could the Confederates have known that in advance? If memory serves, the first they heard of a successful US bomb was when it destroyed Newport News, VA.

I didn't say that they did know that. I didn't even think that was part of it. I just said that if a nuclear bomb destroys the US Army in front of Atlanta the first Bomb would not be dropped on Newport News but instead on Atlanta. The *second* would be either Charleston or Newport News.

 

[Alternatehistoryguy47]

hrmph... point taken.

 

[CT23]

I'm not that familial with Virginia geography; was there anything at Newport News, VA (besides trying to get Featherston) that was worth using a superbomb on?