united germany excluding prussia and austria

octoberman

Banned
The Unification of Germany into the German Empire, dominated by Prussia with a federalist structure was announced on 18 January 1871 in the Hall of Mirrors at the Palace of Versailles in France during the Franco Prussian War. It excluded Habsburg Austria. But what if Germany excluded both Prussia and Austria ?
 
It either is something akin to Metternich's vision of Italy, mostly a geographical expression with trade ties and heavy Prussian and Austrian interference, or the required PODs make nationalism, Austria and/or Prussia quite unrecognizable from OTL.
Such is the way of AH made just for the sale of changing from OTL.
 
The only way that's feasible is if Prussia doesn't expand westwards as much as it did in the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars. Minor possessions west of modern Saxony-Anhalt/the Elbe are fine, because potentially they could be ceded to a united Germany or exist as exclaves. If you want to exclude Prussia after the Congress of Vienna, you need to have Berlin lose the Rhineland and Westphalia somehow (e.g. to a republican uprising as part of an alternate 1848/49).

Also of note is the possibility of a third party to unite Germany. I recently watched a video detailing the Partition of Leipzig of 1485 and how avoiding that would likely hamper Brandenburg's rise and would allow for the Electorate of Saxony to grow to dominate HRE politics. That would obviously be pre-Prussia, but it does show one important aspect of this matter: ultimately you need to have at least a few strong-ish states that can defend themselves against Prussia and Austria. Alternatively the united Germany would need an important foreign benefactor, basically France or the UK, to act as guarantor.
 
Indeed, a Germany without Prussia is only possible if Prussia is limited to its' Napoleonic era borders. In its' post 1815, let alone post 1866 borders, there wouldn't be much of a Germany left.
 
I can't see this happening as long as Prussia is great power. Probably you need POD during Seven Years War before this could happen.
 
Simplifications I know but some ideas I had
POD 1) - Tsarina Elizabeth lives longer and the destruction of Frederick's Prussia is completed. But this alone probably just eliminates unification because there isn't a power center in with an interest in unification to serve as the nuclei.
POD 2) - French Revolution as we know it is crushed or severely moderated, leaving the ancien regime in the Germanies relatively intact. But again there is no nuclei for unification.
POD 3) - Napoleon (somehow) wins, by which I mean his empire surviving with the German/Italian settlements intact. The HRE is dead and the statelets mediatized, Austria focuses on its non-German interests of the Austrian Empire, Prussia is a reduced client state, and the Confederation of the Rhine survives. In this Napoleonic scenario the most likely nuclei would be Jerome's Kingdom of Westphalia. And the united Germany would be the space between the Rhine and Austria/Prussia.
 
Indeed, a Germany without Prussia is only possible if Prussia is limited to its' Napoleonic era borders. In its' post 1815, let alone post 1866 borders, there wouldn't be much of a Germany left.
Maybe an ATL equivalent of the 1848 Revolutions/Spring of Nations leads to Prussia being reduced to said Napoleonic-era borders (maybe Russia props up said rump Kingdom as a buffer state) while most of OTL West Germany+Saxony forms a revolutionary German state could be the latest POD for such a "Germany without Prussia or Austria" setting, on that note?
 

Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
Maybe Austria goes ahead with its plans to annex Bavaria, expel Hanover, Saxony and Prussia, and then the rest of the German states voluntarily exit as a loose confederation because of fears of Austrian absorption, and Hanover merges resulting a pro-British/French state.

Where does that leave the Austrian Netherlands?
 
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I think the clearest way to achieve this is for Napoleon to win and for the Confederation of the Rhine to survive. With neither Prussian nor Austrian influence, it could be united by a different power base like the Saxon or Bavarian kings, although personally I think the most ironic outcome would be crowning one of the Westphalian Bonapartes after defeating France. Hieronymus, Emperor of the Germans does have a nice ring to it.
 
As a low-effort PoD, perhaps Victoria is born a man, keeping Hanover and the UK in personal union. A viceroy is appointed that is as popular as the OTL Ernest Augustus, who during the 1848 revolution was able to defuse the revolutionaries simply by threatening to abdicate, so that British presence in Hanover is able to be internally stable. That way, whatever pan-German sentiment that springs up (perhaps harnessed as a “third force” of the medium German states such as Hanover, Bavaria, Württemberg and Saxony, or a strengthening of the OTL Steuerverein) have the unofficial protection of the British empire, ward Prussia off and slowly head for a slow confederalization or unification of the non-Prussian bits of Germany.
 
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As a low-effort PoD, perhaps Victoria is born a man, keeping Hanover and the UK in personal union. A viceroy is appointed that is as popular as the OTL Ernest Augustus, who during the 1848 revolution was able to defuse the revolutionaries simply by threatening to abdicate, so that British presence in Hanover is able to be internally stable. That way, whatever pan-German sentiment that springs up (perhaps harnessed as a “third force” of the medium German states such as Hanover, Bavaria, Württemberg and Saxony, or a strengthening of the OTL Steuerverein) have the unofficial protection of the British empire, ward Prussia off and slowly head for a slow confederalization or unification of the non-Prussian bits of Germany.


I agree with this idea, in particular because we have evidence that in Otl the Habsburg court repeatedly tried to involve Great Britain ( under the regency of George III and the reigns of George IV and William IV ) to seek greater influence in the confederation, so as to make Hanover is a solid opponent of Prussia, as well as an aspiring leader of the "third Germany" who potentially compromises with Bavaria ( another claimant to the title, in OTL it is the main promoter, together with Wurttemberg and Saxony, of greater collaboration between the smaller German states ) to better coordinate, both with the two failed attempts to make Hanover the admiralty of the north of GC, or trying to pass federal laws that would strengthen the middle states ( Vienna was not interested in expansion, unlike Berlin, rather it was content to maintain the status Quo, where it was already recognized by custom as the leader of the German states ) finally in a hypothetical ATL 1848, it cannot be excluded that a skilled sovereign could exploit popular feelings to gain influence and territories for himself ( because honestly speaking the survival of the multitude of minor states, the so-called Kleinstatatei "after 1848 favored in the long run Prussia, because they could not represent a serious threat to its aspirations, leaving only Hanover to face it against it, on the northern front of the war, thus being able to concentrate the bulk of its army against the Austrians and Saxons ) so to recap if Hanover had in any way having obtained control over the various Lippe, Waldeck, Anahlt ( 1 ) and pushing for an enlargement of Saxony into Thuringia or possibly unifying said territories into a single state, it could have become a good means of strengthening the third Germany and at the same time the possibilities that in the event of a future war between Austria and Prussia, the latter does not have much chance of victory


1 ) even just gaining control over Brunswick in some fashion around the 1820s might slightly change things, given that the inhabitants of the duchy seemed truly split between wanting to remain under the control of Hanover (and GB) or supporting the political autonomy of their young Duke Charles II ( who was much loved at the time, but who was later driven out with the uprisings of 1830/31 )

P. S

also honestly there would be infinite possibilities to have a Germany not unified by Austria or Prussia, it may seem strange but there are pods that we can use even from the 30 years war / Schmalkand (there is one thought of by the Viennese court of the period which would have seen HRE transformed into a more centralized state but in a federal sense with the simplification of many secular territories and their subsequent union into larger confessional entities ( the Habsburgs wanted to definitively resolve the problem of the Augsburg agreements, creating individual potentates for a specific Protestant confession, therefore a Lutheran kingdom where all its adherents should have converged, a duchy for the Calvinists, a buffer state for the Catholics between the Habsburgs ( including the Spanish branch ) and France and finally a slight imperial expansion in Swabia
 
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I agree with this idea, in particular because we have evidence that in Otl the Habsburg court repeatedly tried to involve Great Britain ( under the regency of George III and the reigns of George IV and William IV ) to seek greater influence in the confederation, so as to make Hanover is a solid opponent of Prussia, as well as an aspiring leader of the "third Germany" who potentially compromises with Bavaria ( another claimant to the title, in OTL it is the main promoter, together with Wurttemberg and Saxony, of greater collaboration between the smaller German states )

Britain didn't show any interest in further integrating Hanover into Germany or sub-German structures like a "third Germany" though. Economically Britain was happy keeping Hanover in a quasi-colonial ("free market") position for British exports, and the Hanoverians seemed to agree. There were protests in favor of cheap coffee and sugar when Hanover finally joined the Zollverein. A British sovereign that shows interest in a more active German policy is going to face inertia if not active resistance from his political classes in Great Britain, and maybe in Hanover too.

Maybe a better path is a Hanoverian sovereign after 1837 with a different personality and policy. Even that seems more likely to lead to a continuation of the German Confederation, maybe leading to something more centralized in an EU sort of way eventually, than a federalized "third Germany". How can one deal with the scattered Prussian territories all over western Germany without a war to reorganize things?
 
Britain didn't show any interest in further integrating Hanover into Germany or sub-German structures like a "third Germany" though. Economically Britain was happy keeping Hanover in a quasi-colonial ("free market") position for British exports, and the Hanoverians seemed to agree. There were protests in favor of cheap coffee and sugar when Hanover finally joined the Zollverein. A British sovereign that shows interest in a more active German policy is going to face inertia if not active resistance from his political classes in Great Britain, and maybe in Hanover too.

Maybe a better path is a Hanoverian sovereign after 1837 with a different personality and policy. Even that seems more likely to lead to a continuation of the German Confederation, maybe leading to something more centralized in an EU sort of way eventually, than a federalized "third Germany". How can one deal with the scattered Prussian territories all over western Germany without a war to reorganize things?


so let's address the Hanover issue, first point, the British elite properly ( aka the PMs ) has no say in the internal politics of the kingdom of Hanover so if the British monarch as sovereign of the kingdom wanted to make a more targeted policy could easily do it, without having to answer to anyone, certainly the parliament could find alternative ways to tie the king's hands and feet, possibly at home ( see the chaos they caused at a political level in OTL with George IV ), but the main obstacle for developing a politically capable third Germany is entirely based on the internal divisions of the aspiring member states ( which constantly fluctuated between pro-Prussian, Austrian and neutral, furthermore each of them feared that a real turn in this direction could lead to the creation of a further aspiring hegemon in the confederation, in particular they looked at the Bavarian ambitions with tremendous suspicion, and therefore every proposal was blocked in a stalemate ) furthermore it must be considered that Otl Hannover calmly took part in the league of the 4 kings ( which also saw Bavaria participate, Wurttemberg and Saxony) with an anti-Prussian function, because we must keep in mind that for them technically Germany existed in some way (the German confederation ), we just need to understand how it would have evolved subsequently ( among possible reform projects at the federal, the Austro-Prussian dualism etc ) therefore certainly that a sovereign of Hanover would have made these political moves within an already existing system ( the GC ) with the aim not of destroying it or creating a new one, but of reforming it to make it more balanced the division of powers within it ( giving the right weight to the German middle states ), because paradoxically for Hanover it would have been better to have as its sovereign in this period ( between 1815 and 1837 ) a George IV who reigned longer than a William IV Otl ( also because the former had no problem in wanting to assert his influence and power in the GC, see the dispute with Charles II of Brunswick or the attempt to convince the prince of Lippe to sell him the territory )

as regards the question of the Prussian Rhineland we need to return to the Congress of Vienna, finding something else to give to Berlin ( other than the usual Saxony ), perhaps Mecklenburg ( which in Otl 1848 had strongly pushed to be incorporated by Prussia ), and giving the Rhineland to another Prince ( possibly Catholic )
 
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Britain didn't show any interest in further integrating Hanover into Germany or sub-German structures like a "third Germany" though. Economically Britain was happy keeping Hanover in a quasi-colonial ("free market") position for British exports, and the Hanoverians seemed to agree. There were protests in favor of cheap coffee and sugar when Hanover finally joined the Zollverein. A British sovereign that shows interest in a more active German policy is going to face inertia if not active resistance from his political classes in Great Britain, and maybe in Hanover too.

Maybe a better path is a Hanoverian sovereign after 1837 with a different personality and policy. Even that seems more likely to lead to a continuation of the German Confederation, maybe leading to something more centralized in an EU sort of way eventually, than a federalized "third Germany". How can one deal with the scattered Prussian territories all over western Germany without a war to reorganize things?
The idea is not for the British sovereign to be pro-German but the British viceroy— IOTL we saw a little of this with Prince Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge being a popular viceroy—serving as a protecting force to shield the German minor states. The British empire would serve here not an active role but a passive one, allowing Bavaria, Wurttemberg, and Saxony to act in concert with Hanover to do whatever and ward off Prussia with the threat of British intervention.
 
so let's address the Hanover issue, first point, the British elite properly ( aka the PMs ) has no say in the internal politics of the kingdom of Hanover so if the British monarch as sovereign of the kingdom wanted to make a more targeted policy could easily do it,

Yes and no. The British government had no formal role in Hanoverian affairs and the monarchs very jealously guarded this independence. On the the other hand, this is an era when Britain was not shy about pushing its trade interests in all sorts of countries it had absolutely no business interfering in, including in Germany. There was a dispute with Prussia over preferential harbor tolls (despite Britain's own preferential Navigation Acts still being in force), efforts to dissuade states from joining the Zollverein, and efforts to keep Frankfurt as a low toll entrepot for goods to be further smuggled into the larger German states. If a British monarch were to take a diametrically opposed policy with regard to Hanover it would certainly be a domestic issue.

without having to answer to anyone, certainly the parliament could find alternative ways to tie the king's hands and feet, possibly at home ( see the chaos they caused at a political level in OTL with George IV ), but the main obstacle for developing a politically capable third Germany is entirely based on the internal divisions of the aspiring member states ( which constantly fluctuated between pro-Prussian, Austrian and neutral, furthermore each of them feared that a real turn in this direction could lead to the creation of a further aspiring hegemon in the confederation

I think we need to distinguish between moves towards uniting a "third Germany" on the one hand and moves simply directed at preventing OTL's Prussian-led unification or something similar led by Austria. It's much easier to see Hanover's role in the second process, particularly if pushed while a British monarch still ruled the new kingdom, even more so if that monarch can somehow obtain an official British guarantee of the German Confederation or of Hanover itself. Actually uniting the middle and small state into something more coherent is a much bigger task and requires more perceived commonality of interest.
 
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The idea is not for the British sovereign to be pro-German but the British viceroy— IOTL we saw a little of this with Prince Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge being a popular viceroy—serving as a protecting force to shield the German minor states. The British empire would serve here not an active role but a passive one, allowing Bavaria, Wurttemberg, and Saxony to act in concert with Hanover to do whatever and ward off Prussia with the threat of British intervention.

Ward off what Prussian activities? If we're talking 1866, for sure, but that was way after the period of the personal union. Before 1848 Hanover was assertive enough to stay out of the Zollverein even OTL and was on the pro-Prussian side immediately following the events of that year. It was perfectly capable of joining into the projected customs union pushed by Bavaria and Wurttemberg in the 1820's but didn't, probably because of the same reason that kept Baden and other states out of it - differing economic priorities. Hanover had no industry to protect and wanted cheap colonial goods, while Bavaria and Wurttemberg wanted higher tariffs.
 
Yes and no. The British government had no formal role in Hanoverian affairs and the monarchs very jealously guarded this independence. On the the other hand, this is an era when Britain was not shy about pushing its trade interests in all sorts of countries it had absolutely no business interfering in, including in Germany. There was a dispute with Prussia over preferential harbor tolls (despite Britain's own preferential Navigation Acts still being in force), efforts to dissuade states from joining the Zollverein, and efforts to keep Frankfurt as a low toll entrepot for goods to be further smuggled into the larger German states. If a British monarch were to take a diametrically opposed policy with regard to Hanover it would certainly be a domestic issue.



I think we need to distinguish between moves towards uniting a "third Germany" on the one hand and moves simply directed at preventing OTL's Prussian-led unification or something similar led by Austria. It's much easier to see Hanover's role in the second process, particularly if pushed while a British monarch still ruled the new kingdom, even more so if that monarch can somehow obtain an official British guarantee of the German Confederation or of Hanover itself. Actually uniting the middle and small state into something more coherent is a much bigger task and requires more perceived commonality of interest.

actually you are right in saying that it is necessary to separate the attempts to form a political union or a cooperative-based league between smaller states ( with the aim of strengthening them both economically, militarily and diplomatically towards the two German powers ) compared to a real project of national unification that excludes Prussia and Austria, but honestly speaking if we don't use a pod further in time to have more options, I don't see how it is possible after 1815, technically not even the same actors ( the various Bavaria, Saxony, Wurttemberg, Baden, Hanover ) would be interested in trying such madness, because it would turn both powers in the region as well as the other German princes against him ( assuming anyone who tried this survives as an independent political entity ), therefore it is logical to think that a Hanover ( even with the possibility of drawing on a crumb of British resources in the remote eventuality ) focuses rather on gaining influence in the smaller states and possibly some border adjustments and above all on reforming the GC to have a greater say in chapter




I would like to call anyway @Kellan Sullivan
because I think it can give us a different vision of the situation
 
The idea is not for the British sovereign to be pro-German but the British viceroy— IOTL we saw a little of this with Prince Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge being a popular viceroy—serving as a protecting force to shield the German minor states. The British empire would serve here not an active role but a passive one, allowing Bavaria, Wurttemberg, and Saxony to act in concert with Hanover to do whatever and ward off Prussia with the threat of British intervention.


You couldn't have said it better than that, in addition to that, I would like to point out that if we get a viceroy of Hanover who has wide freedom of action on a political level as well as the full support of the sovereign, that would already be a good starting point because it would allow a greater diplomatic flexibility of Hanover in the confederation, and perhaps exploiting the Anglophile sentiment that was spreading in Germany at the time ( just think of Metternich who was one of the main exponents of the category, however absurd it may seem ) can channel the minor princes towards cooperation at a federal level which would strengthen their political weight compared to the two powers ( because Prussia had already shown its expansionist / hegemonic aspirations in the region before 1848, just think of how it dictated almost all of the foreign and sometimes internal policies of the states minors neighboring her, if we exclude Hannover ), I therefore fully support that a more open and inclusive policy ( of Hanover ) towards the reform ideas conceived by Bavaria, Saxony and Wurttemberg, which were tacitly encouraged by Vienna, can form the basis for a politically relevant nucleus in Frankfurt Diet which has as its intention that of giving the right representation to the " third Germany ", which in an ATL 1848 can lead to interesting or alternative results in the resolution of the German question or even if only to a further process of rationalization of the German states ( which at least would be supported by the more moderate faction of the liberals of the time, as one of the main complaints was the existence of entities (in their opinion) useless and harmful to the economy or to the development of a common administration and Justice at the federal level )
 
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