What if the 20th July Plotters escaped Germany?

[Gojira_Minus_1]

In 1944, July 20th plot goes ahead and manages to wound the Nazi Dictator more severely, this time being due to the bomb being moved closer. Thus, Hitler is in critical condition when rescued but unable to serve his role for a time (or possibly at all) leading to Hermann Göring to succeed him as Führer and take the reins of state. The plot moves on ahead and comes closer to success as the Reserve Army attempts to arrest high ranking members of military and government affairs, only for the plot to be foiled as Göring moves to reassert his authority to a quickly declining situation at home.

The Plotters thus are forced to flee, with some captured and executed, but most including its leaders escape to the West or as far as Switerland. Attempts by the SS and Gestapo fail to catch them, and soon these anti-Nazi/anti-Hitler "Revolutionaries" are taken into custody by the West.

How does this play out following such a plot being foiled, but it's leaders escaping? How would it effect the image of Germany and her people? What would become of the Plotters themselves and how different would their lives turn out as a result?​

 

[prester.john208]

What happens with Rommel, Beck, von Kluge etc.?

 

[Gojira_Minus_1]

What happens with Rommel, Beck, von Kluge etc.?

That's a good question. I can't answer for von Kluge for sure, but as I said above, a number of the leaders of the plot escaped before they could be captured and executed, so I imagine Beck and von Kluge manage to flee, however Rommel still ends up being arrested and later forced to commit suicide. Though it might be possible that, due to the chaos resulting from this more successful coup attempt, he avoids his fate either by following the conspirators into exile, or pardon and/or found not guilty after defending himself in court. Point is, the Plotters (their leaders specifically) escape potential death and survive the war.

 

[Sekhmet_D]

How does this play out following such a plot being foiled, but it's leaders escaping? How would it effect the image of Germany and her people? What would become of the Plotters themselves and how different would their lives turn out as a result?

This all depends on which of the plotters enters Allied custody, and how many beans they decide to spill to their captors. Depending on what top secret knowledge they possess and decide to share, the Allied victory might end up accelerated considerably - perhaps a successful advance into the Ruhr by late 1944 thanks to their cooperation? In return, I can see them obtaining immunity for whatever war crimes they may have committed and perhaps heading a new German government after the Reich collapses.

Apart from Rommel, who else among the plotters possessed information that might hasten a Nazi defeat if shared with the Allies, and what form did that information take?

 

[Gojira_Minus_1]

This all depends on which of the plotters enters Allied custody, and how many beans they decide to spill to their captors. Depending on what top secret knowledge they possess and decide to share, the Allied victory might end up accelerated considerably - perhaps a successful advance into the Ruhr by late 1944 thanks to their cooperation? In return, I can see them obtaining immunity for whatever war crimes they may have committed and perhaps heading a new German government after the Reich collapses.

Apart from Rommel, who else among the plotters possessed information that might hasten a Nazi defeat if shared with the Allies, and what form did that information take?

Immediately looking at a list of the Plotters, Ludwig Beck jumps out for he was General and Chief of the General Staff of the German Army High Command, which alone could potentially contain some seriously vital and sensitive information the allies could use.

Wilhelm Canaris, another conspirator, was head of the Abwehr (the German military-intelligence service) from 1935 to 1944 in the otl. That position to, containing sensitive information in regards to counter intelligence, recruitment for said organisation, knowledge of its operations, etc.

Others were in positions in the army, such as Generals, Colonels, field Marshalls, etc.
Still some were Lawyers, finance ministers, diplomats (specifically for the Soviet Union and Italy).
Others were also in the Reichstag.

So their was, at least to an extent, a lot the conspirators could offer the allies in exchange for a lot of things. Immunity for past war crimes, influence on a post war Germany would look like, and so on. I can't list specifics as this was a quick search to find this out exactly using Wikipedia, thus I can't say for sure. But based on the positions many Plotters held, I'd say the allies may have a field day.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

It could backfire.

For example, if Abwehr chief Canaris got away, he would presumably expose all the Abwehr agents in Britain. But these were all double agents under British control - the "Double Cross System", which would be destroyed. So the British would not be able to feed the Germans misleading V-weapon impact data, or execute other less important but useful deceptions carried out in the last part of the war.

If Fellgiebel (Wehrmacht chief of Signals) got away, that might have a similar effect on ULTRA.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

I am kind of curious, did any of them try in OTL? Was that ever in the cards? Seems more like an operation where you succeed or die trying.

 

[Ahab]

You probably get an even worse "clean Wehrmacht" myth and even more Nazis escaping justice. In OTL at least those got killed, even if by the nazis themselves...

 

[Sekhmet_D]

You probably get an even worse "clean Wehrmacht" myth and even more Nazis escaping justice. In OTL at least those got killed, even if by the nazis themselves...

On that note, precisely what war crimes were the plotters guilty of, if any?

 

[Ahab]

On that note, precisely what war crimes were the plotters guilty of, if any?

They were high ranking nazi officials and officers, that means they were all part of the industrial genocide and slavery machine in someway.
Even Rommel massacred prisoners in France and was part of the holocaust in North Africa.

 

[oberdada]

They'd probably be treated like Hess.
The western allies really did not have use for them.

 

[prester.john208]

They were high ranking nazi officials and officers, that means they were all part of the industrial genocide and slavery machine in someway.
Even Rommel massacred prisoners in France and was part of the holocaust in North Africa.

So turning over prisoners to get massacred, or looking the other way counts?

 

[Tripwire]

They'd probably be treated like Hess.
The western allies really did not have use for them.

The (I think) highest-ranking one to survive, Rommel’s chief of staff Hans Spiedel, eventually got made a NATO general in 1955. He was never a Nazi Party member though.

But I agree, I don’t think the Allies would have any use for any of the plotters at first, and even if they had been successful at killing Hitler and taking control they would have still had a hard time convincing Allied leaders to depart from their plan of demanding unconditional surrender. Towards the end it was said that secretly some Allied leaders practically considered Hitler’s continued existence to be an asset because he was so incompetent of a military commander.

 

[Don Corleone]

For example, if Abwehr chief Canaris got away, he would presumably expose all the Abwehr agents in Britain. But these were all double agents under British control - the "Double Cross System", which would be destroyed. So the British would not be able to feed the Germans misleading V-weapon impact data, or execute other less important but useful deceptions carried out in the last part of the war.

But if they're really working for the West, wouldn't Canaris give MI5 a name and the response is "we know"?

 

[prester.john208]

But if they're really working for the West, wouldn't Canaris give MI5 a name and the response is "we know"?

Canaris and company were selling out Germany from day one.
Perhaps some of the poor trade craft was intentional.

 

[Tripwire]

Canaris and company were selling out Germany from day one.
Perhaps some of the poor trade craft was intentional.

It seems to be a bit of an enduring mystery to just what degree Canaris was working with British intelligence throughout the war.

You’ve also got to realize what an incredible moral dilemma people like Canaris, who was entirely aware of and seemed to have opposed the atrocities Hitler was committing, would have faced.

 

[Winterwolf1]

They were high ranking nazi officials and officers, that means they were all part of the industrial genocide and slavery machine in someway.
Even Rommel massacred prisoners in France and was part of the holocaust in North Africa.

Rommel himself and the Afrikakorps disobeit hitlers direkt order to kill Exil germans fighting under british command, (most prominent the jews), he even told hitler per Diagramm that he would personnally shot any ss-man who would harm his prisoners.( they were sadly killed anyway after he fell in disgrace by hitler). And Rommel massacres french prisoners? Im, sorry but where have you read this propaganda?

Stauffenberg was fighting in north Afrika and never had any kind of hatred against the Jews, or any other nationallity. Name one thing, one single attrocity in which he or rommel had taken part in allegedly after your Statement?
Holocaust in africa? yes, hundreds of libyan Jews were deported to Italy and later in the kz bergen-belsen, but that was done by order of hitler and was carried out by the Italians, not that they had any Choice. The most acurate thing for an holocaust IN africa was the use of the forced Labor of jews in tunesia(around 2500 to 3000, if i remember correctly), who were forced to build defensive Systems against the british and americans. But they died mostly of Exhaustion and heat( to many additional deaths in an pointless war) but can you say that that was ordered, or that there deaths were planned by rommel.??? No.

Canaris was also an important member of the Widerstand in germany, he were involfed since 1938 in planned Coup attempts and had a huge mistrust against hitler and the Nazis. But he probably produced more distrust inside the german Resistance than archieving anything great.

Were they picture-perfect heroes who saved the maiden in shining and flawless armor? No. Were they evil monsters? No. Did they want to put an end to Hitler and the Nazis' reign of terror? Yes. Were they convinced Nazis? A large part after 1940, sadly yes, but when they realized what Hitler really wanted and began to implement in 1942, 1943, what did they do? They risk their lives and those of their families to stop Hitler. What would we do today? Most of us would do nothing, a few would dedicate their lives to hatred, and a few would stand up to injustice. Should they have stand up sooner? Yes, definitely yes. Were they war criminals? No. They were people like you and me, desperate in dark times. In wars there are no heroes, no clear black and white, but these men are closer to a gray and white tone than gray or black.
I'm waiting for your evidence for the denigration of Stauffenberg.

For Germany, Patriotismus is far more common than today, Stauffenberg is probably our first Chancellor. I dont see that the French German Friendship will drive in this Environment, also this gernans wouldn't say no to the atomic bomb like Adenauer had to. The relationship between french and Germany will be interesting to say atleast. It could lead to an approach to the holocaust like the Japanese (neglice)or like the DDR(that were the Bad nazis in the BRD, we hadn't done anything wrong) this time also in the BRD(we fought hitler for the future of germany, not like the communist traiters). Which will have surely only positiv effects, for sureeeeee..........if an Wiedervereinigung happens in this timeline with an more militaristic germany between france and poland who fears an strong germany,.... unlikely, would lead probably to another war. Germany wont give up Preußen or Schlesien like Brandt did. It will lead to huge butterflies for german culture, that is sure

 

[prester.john208]

It seems to be a bit of an enduring mystery to just what degree Canaris was working with British intelligence throughout the war.

Its interesting that as Heydrich was gaining power vs Canaris (due to Abwehr's inaccurate intelligence on the USSR in early 1941 through the surprise USSR winter offensive), Heydrich became target #1 for MI6. Heydrich had a negative attitude towards the Abwehr—shaped in part by his belief that Germany's defeat in the First World War was primarily attributable to failures of military intelligence. *

* Heydrich had read Walter Nicolai's 1923 book, Geheime Mächte, in which the author argues that Imperial Germany lost the war as a result of not having a capable intelligence agency comparable to the ones operated by Britain and France.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

But if they're really working for the West, wouldn't Canaris give MI5 a name and the response is "we know"?

The point is that the Germans know that he knows, and will tell the British, so now the Germans know that the British know. Which means that those agents are "blown", and the Germans won't believe anything they send.

There was a similar crisis in early 1944. Johnny Jebsen (British codename ARTIST) was an Abwehr operative who was controller or at least knew of some of the top Abwehr agents in Britain, including GARBO and TRICYCLE. ARTIST decided the Allies would win the war, and offered to defect. He met with ARTIST, whom he suspected of being a double agent, and to show his bona fides, gave him GARBO's identity.

This horrified the XX Committee, because if the Abwehr learned that GARBO had been exposed, XX would have to shut him down. XX let him continue. But there was a huge risk. If ARTIST openly defected, or changed his tack and told his superiors what he'd done, or was somehow found out, the Abwehr would know that GARBO had been exposed yet continued to report. Everything GARBO had sent later would be known disinformation, including the reams of material he'd sent supporting the FORTITUDE deception. FORTITUDE would collapse, and the Germans would logically conclude that Pas-de-Calais was not the target, so Normandy must be.

The XX Committee seriously considered having ARTIST killed. Then he was arrested by the Gestapo, which really scared them. Fortunately, the Gestapo wanted him for embezzling Abwehr funds and not his potential defection .

 

[Sekhmet_D]

They were high ranking nazi officials and officers, that means they were all part of the industrial genocide and slavery machine in someway.
Even Rommel massacred prisoners in France and was part of the holocaust in North Africa.

Rommel himself and the Afrikakorps disobeit hitlers direkt order to kill Exil germans fighting under british command, (most prominent the jews), he even told hitler per Diagramm that he would personnally shot any ss-man who would harm his prisoners.( they were sadly killed anyway after he fell in disgrace by hitler). And Rommel massacres french prisoners? Im, sorry but where have you read this propaganda?

I have yet to see any solid evidence that Rommel was directly responsible for the above, really. Whatever trail that might have linked Walter Rauff's Einsatzgruppen to Rommel is shaky at best.