What if the Kaiser made Prussia an independent state after WW1?

[Electro-entertainer]

Kaiser Whilhelm the second is regarded as a poor leader of Germany under many regards. The Kaiser following the war tried to become king of Prussia and not Germany; however he found Germany and Prussia were one united country. He soon abdicates after.
What if, in this alternate world; the kaiser made a democratic vote and formed Prussia to be king of?
Prussia would encompass only the eastern part of Germany that was cut off from Germany by Poland.
Firstly, I could see a mutual defense pact against the Nazi army in the west forming. I could also see Poland be more willing to sell Danzig to Prussia, and other western lands in exchange for port access and joint control of those regions. I could see Prussia invading Lithuania. Eventually invading latvia and Estonia. The Prussian government would sign a non-Agression pact with the Soviets and the Soviets would aid poland in the German invasion along with the Prussians. The allies would not invade, as the Soviets were involved already, and the allies disliked the Soviets. The war would draw to a stand still with Germany not having valuable Prussian land, and Prussians being good fighters.
Ill leave that scenario here! I hope you enjoyed!

 

[Salvador79]

????
What???

Kaiser Wilhelm was King of Prussia and Emperor of the Germans, and you can bet that he was aware of that fact.
I have never heard of any plans of his abdicating only one title and not the other. Where have you got that idea from?
The rest of the OP is full of anachronisms and geographical inaccuracies. The part "cut off by Poland" is called East Prussia. It's rather small.

 

[Waltzing Brunhilda]

One he was the King of Prussia while he was Kaiser of Germany and two why on earth would the allies let the man who they think started the First World war. Three what you think would happen post war is very implausible, why would the allies let Prussia conquer the Baltic States and why would the Soviets sign a non-aggression pact with a known imperialist and someone who just conquered an area that the Soviets wanted for strategic reasons. Also why would Poland sell their ports to Prussia it makes no sense even if they get port access and joint sovereignty. It would be like France giving up alsace-lorraine in exchange for joint sovereignty. Also have you heard of the Anschluss Hitler wanted to unite all Germans everywhere and that would include this Prussia.

 

[Electro-entertainer]

One he was the King of Prussia while he was Kaiser of Germany and two why on earth would the allies let the man who they think started the First World war. Three what you think would happen post war is very implausible, why would the allies let Prussia conquer the Baltic States and why would the Soviets sign a non-aggression pact with a known imperialist and someone who just conquered an area that the Soviets wanted for strategic reasons. Also why would Poland sell their ports to Prussia it makes no sense even if they get port access and joint sovereignty. It would be like France giving up alsace-lorraine in exchange for joint sovereignty. Also have you heard of the Anschluss Hitler wanted to unite all Germans everywhere and that would include this Prussia.

The reasoning behind this is fairly obvious: To protect against German aggression in the west. Germany would want war since he wanted to unite the Germanic people. Kaiser Whilhelm actually tried to separate Prussia because he was a traditionalistic German with high support in the region.

 

[Electro-entertainer]

????
What???

Kaiser Wilhelm was King of Prussia and Emperor of the Germans, and you can bet that he was aware of that fact.
I have never heard of any plans of his abdicating only one title and not the other. Where have you got that idea from?
The rest of the OP is full of anachronisms and geographical inaccuracies. The part "cut off by Poland" is called East Prussia. It's rather small.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II,_German_Emperor scroll down to where it saya abdication and flight for context

 

[MrHaakwood]

The reasoning behind this is fairly obvious: To protect against German aggression in the west. Germany would want war since he wanted to unite the Germanic people. Kaiser Whilhelm actually tried to separate Prussia because he was a traditionalistic German with high support in the region.

Hitler might be butterflied away or if not is in unkown player. Wilhelm on the other side not. Your whole post doesnt make any sense. This is not how people acted, this is not how Wilhem acted, this is not how the world acted. Making Prussia idependent wasnt in the cards, because the people dont wanted it. They kicked out their monarchs & specially Wilhelm was disliked as the man who led Germany to ruin.

 

[Electro-entertainer]

Hitler might be butterflied away or if not is in unkown player. Wilhelm on the other side not. Your whole post doesnt make any sense. This is not how people acted, this is not how Wilhem acted, this is not how the world acted. Making Prussia idependent wasnt in the cards, because the people dont wanted it. They kicked out their monarchs & specially Wilhelm was disliked as the man who led Germany to ruin.

Like I said, this is the scenario if which I believe Prussia would go down. Whilhelm did want a independent Prussia due to revolutionaries. The Prussians supported their king. Plus, whilhelm the 3rd could have been a logical leader. It's almost impossible to predict. I am more knowledgeable on the subject of Nazism. Please check out my other post about what if the allies didn't invade Germany

 

[Salvador79]

The reasoning behind this is fairly obvious: To protect against German aggression in the west. Germany would want war since he wanted to unite the Germanic people. Kaiser Whilhelm actually tried to separate Prussia because he was a traditionalistic German with high support in the region.

Is that your ATL?
Because it's certainly not OTL.

I checked the Wikipedia page. The German version gives the source (Nipperdey's Deutsche Geschichte, which is an outdated, but very solid standard work), so I retract my criticism there. In fact, what it says is that Wilhelm pondered this thought on November 9th, which was the day when the republic(s) was/were proclaimed. That gives you an idea of how viable / fleeting it was.
Wilhelm's support in 1918 was very limited, at best, everywhere. Yes, East of the Elbe (but that is not just East Prussia) in the countryside there was a lot of traditionalistic anti-republican thought, and the Junkers as a social class maintained this, and when people forgot how stupid Wilhelm and his regime stumbled Germany into WW1 and sacrificed, well, a lot for absolutely nothing, there was even support for a restoration of the monarchy there. But that's not the situation of 1918. The situation of 1918 was as @MrHaakwood described it.

A monarchist restoration only in Prussia later makes no sense at all, either, since Prussia consistently had centre-left majorities and governments, even when the Weimar Coalition had lost its majority on the Reich level.

Also, Wilhelm II. was not exactly a very traditionalist guy. He had a weird aesthetic penchant for ecclectic "old-ness", yes, but he was also an enthusiastic moderniser and technology freak, too, and he often made vague allusions about sympathies for political transformations.

 

[Waltzing Brunhilda]

The reasoning behind this is fairly obvious: To protect against German aggression in the west. Germany would want war since he wanted to unite the Germanic people. Kaiser Whilhelm actually tried to separate Prussia because he was a traditionalistic German with high support in the region.

OTL the Allies asked the Netherlands for the Kaiser to try him if he tries to declare an independent state in the minuscule East Prussia he would be crushed quickly and brutally and he'd be tired by the Allies. This is ASB also your own source weakens your point as it was constitutionally illegal to separate the German and Prussian thrones. Alongside the fact that during the German Revolution nobody actually supported him anymore.
It's okay as a new member to suggest PODs that you think are possible but if multiple people tell you that its implausible it probably is.

 

[Electro-entertainer]

Is that your ATL?
Because it's certainly not OTL.

I checked the Wikipedia page. The German version gives the source (Nipperdey's Deutsche Geschichte, which is an outdated, but very solid standard work), so I retract my criticism there. In fact, what it says is that Wilhelm pondered this thought on November 9th, which was the day when the republic(s) was/were proclaimed. That gives you an idea of how viable / fleeting it was.
Wilhelm's support in 1918 was very limited, at best, everywhere. Yes, East of the Elbe (but that is not just East Prussia) in the countryside there was a lot of traditionalistic anti-republican thought, and the Junkers as a social class maintained this, and when people forgot how stupid Wilhelm and his regime stumbled Germany into WW1 and sacrificed, well, a lot for absolutely nothing, there was even support for a restoration of the monarchy there. But that's not the situation of 1918. The situation of 1918 was as @MrHaakwood described it.

A monarchist restoration only in Prussia later makes no sense at all, either, since Prussia consistently had centre-left majorities and governments, even when the Weimar Coalition had lost its majority on the Reich level.

Also, Wilhelm II. was not exactly a very traditionalist guy. He had a weird aesthetic penchant for ecclectic "old-ness", yes, but he was also an enthusiastic moderniser and technology freak, too, and he often made vague allusions about sympathies for political transformations.

My alternate history did inquire about whilhelm the 3rd. As his father died in 1941. Should I make this more clear?

 

[Electro-entertainer]

Alongside

Well, it's alt history. It is a possibility that is interesting. Like I said. Please check out my other timeline that is at least more plausible that I would like to work the kinks out.

 

[Electro-entertainer]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...rmany-never-got-invaded-by-the-allies.487199/ I would love feedback in my main source

 

[MrHaakwood]

Like I said, this is the scenario if which I believe Prussia would go down. Whilhelm did want a independent Prussia due to revolutionaries. The Prussians supported their king. Plus, whilhelm the 3rd could have been a logical leader. It's almost impossible to predict. I am more knowledgeable on the subject of Nazism. Please check out my other post about what if the allies didn't invade Germany

Your reading of history is flawed. Sorry to be that blunt. But you keep talking about the Prussian kings like they where the deciding factor. They werent. The German people were & the Hohenzollern like all the other petty aristocrats where lucky they got away with their life. The German people didnt want them after four years of war, so you have to find a good reason to change that. Till now, I dont see any.

 

[Electro-entertainer]

Your reading of history is flawed. Sorry to be that blunt. But you keep talking about the Prussian kings like they where the deciding factor. They werent. The German people were & the Hohenzollern like all the other petty aristocrats where lucky they got away with their life. The German people didnt want them after four years of war, so you have to find a good reason to change that. Till now, I dont see any.

Well, your right. The people mattered a lot. However, Prussian kingship could also create good military might like Frederic the Great.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Wilhelm attempted to abdicate the Imperial throne whilst remaining King of Prussia (he thought they were two separate titles, whereas the Imperial Constitution stated the King of Prussia was the Emperor and one went hand-in-hand with the other) but he never attempted or wanted to make Prussia independent.

 

[David T]

Kaiser Whilhelm the second is regarded as a poor leader of Germany under many regards. The Kaiser following the war tried to become king of Prussia and not Germany; however he found Germany and Prussia were one united country. He soon abdicates after.
What if, in this alternate world; the kaiser made a democratic vote and formed Prussia to be king of?

How could he have survived a democratic vote in Prussia? Look at the results of the 1919 Prussian Landtag election: The SPD and USPD combined got over 44 percent of the vote The left-liberals of the DDP didn't have much use for him either and they got 16.20 percent of the vote. The Zentrum wasn't terribly friendly to him by this time, either... The DNVP and the DVP are the only parties that could be called monarchist "at heart" (though the DVP and even many in the DNVP were willing to accept the Republic) but they were a small minority in Prussia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919_Prussian_state_election

What makes it more confusing is that you seem to limit Prussia to East Prussia, but the idea of separating East Prussia from the rest of Germany (and Prussia) was not desired by anyone in Germany and anyway the SPD won 45.6 percent of the vote in East Prussia in 1919, which hardly indicates any love for the Kaiser....

 

[Cymry-Korean]

The Prussians were not this monolithic militaristic society that the OP seems to think they were. By the end of the war they were as war weary as anyone else.

 

[Pelranius]

If Kaiser Bill tries Prusexit, then the Hohenzollerns suddenly add a lot of enemies on the right, in addition to the preexisting enemies on the left.