What would von Schleicher's Germany look like?

[thezerech]

Kurt von Schleicher actually had a pretty good opportunity to stop Adolf Hitler's rise to power by extending the Reichstag's recess until the spring of 1933, which would allow von Schleicher to consolidate power and popularity and let the NSDAP devolve into infighting.

K. von Schleicher also had the support of Gregor Strasser, which could have, if Hitler and not been as effective in rallying support to him within the party (IIRC He threatened to kill himself), then the left-wing nazis might have defected with Strasser to a pro-Schleicher group.

This combined with von Schleicher's, (not Hitler's) public works program being able to come to fruition which would make the Schleicher gov't more popular would probably cement his rule in Germany. Then, if Hindenburg dies on schedule von Schleicher is positioned to take power as he would still have military support.

So, assuming in 1933 von Schleicher remains in power over Hitler and manages to form some sort of coalition with other rightists against both the nazis and the SPD/KPD, what would this Germany look like?

My own personal guess is that this Germany would align with Italy, and Nationalist China. Von Schleicher's regime would in my opinion resemble Franco's regime, except the radical figure (in this case Strasser not Primo de Riviera) would still be alive, aswell as Hitler in the mix (unless he follows through on his threat to kill himself if the left wing nazis deserted him). I could see the Stahlhelm becoming von Schleicher's MVSN, personally I don't think he'd restore the Monarchy though it might be inevitable without going something close Strasserist which doesn't really sound like von Schleicher.

 

[threadnecromancer]

I suppose he could try to delay the monarchical restoration, it wouldn't be that hard to delay it until the Kaiser's death in 1941.

 

[Gudestein]

I think its an interesting question, but answers are not easil found. He was definately part of a confrontational course with Versailles and had initiated a secret German rearmament.
So he might seek some of the Things that Hitler did (eg. Rheinland, Sudetenland, Danzig corridor), but as he doesnt actually want war, he is not going to be as good a blackmailer early on. As Italy becomes disenchanted with the western powers there is a good chance to see some reversal of the Versailles treaty's provisions, but they would not risk war.

 

[thezerech]

I think its an interesting question, but answers are not easil found. He was definately part of a confrontational course with Versailles and had initiated a secret German rearmament.
So he might seek some of the Things that Hitler did (eg. Rheinland, Sudetenland, Danzig corridor), but as he doesnt actually want war, he is not going to be as good a blackmailer early on. As Italy becomes disenchanted with the western powers there is a good chance to see some reversal of the Versailles treaty's provisions, but they would not risk war.

I don't think they would risk war, it seems uncharacteristic on von Schleicher to take such a risk. I wonder if he would move for an Ancshluss? I think rather he would align with Dolfuss and the VF.

Would he also go for the corridor? I can see the Sudetenland if the corridor is not an option. However the Czechs imo are strong enough to resist Germany without the rapid rearmament.

 

[History Learner]

Given that Weimar Germany had a very poor relationship with Poland and the Poles were especially concerned with von Schleicher, I could definitely see him organizing an earlier division of the nation between Germany and the Soviet Union (Schleicher pretty much organized the 1920s cooperation between the Red Army and the Reichswehr).

 

[thezerech]

Given that Weimar Germany had a very poor relationship with Poland and the Poles were especially concerned with von Schleicher, I could definitely see him organizing an earlier division of the nation between Germany and the Soviet Union (Schleicher pretty much organized the 1920s cooperation between the Red Army and the Reichswehr).

Von Schleicher is not Adolf, and I don't believe so public an agreement with the Soviets is a good idea. Secret cooperation in the 20s is one thing, open partition is quite another. I think cooperation with the OUN and other Ukrainians is more likely, because again other generals might not be happy about working with the Soviets. Granted, I might be wrong I don't know too much about Weimar Generals.

 

[History Learner]

Von Schleicher is not Adolf, and I don't believe so public an agreement with the Soviets is a good idea. Secret cooperation in the 20s is one thing, open partition is quite another. I think cooperation with the OUN and other Ukrainians is more likely, because again other generals might not be happy about working with the Soviets. Granted, I might be wrong I don't know too much about Weimar Generals.

The Poles were actually more concerned with Schleicher than they were Hitler, with the election of the NSDAP actually resulting in much improved relations between Germany and the Poles IOTL (See the 1934 Non-Aggression Pact and attempts by Hitler to make the Polish into Allies). If I remember right, the Polish considered launching an attack on Germany in the event Schleicher solidified his rule. With regards to the Reichswehr-Soviet connections, most of the top generals seemed to view as a necessary and favorable evil at the time, so using it to help offset international disapproval from action against the Poles doesnt strike me as implausible.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Kurt von Schleicher actually had a pretty good opportunity to stop Adolf Hitler's rise to power by extending the Reichstag's recess until the spring of 1933, which would allow von Schleicher to consolidate power and popularity and let the NSDAP devolve into infighting.

K. von Schleicher also had the support of Gregor Strasser, which could have, if Hitler and not been as effective in rallying support to him within the party (IIRC He threatened to kill himself), then the left-wing nazis might have defected with Strasser to a pro-Schleicher group.

This combined with von Schleicher's, (not Hitler's) public works program being able to come to fruition which would make the Schleicher gov't more popular would probably cement his rule in Germany. Then, if Hindenburg dies on schedule von Schleicher is positioned to take power as he would still have military support.

So, assuming in 1933 von Schleicher remains in power over Hitler and manages to form some sort of coalition with other rightists against both the nazis and the SPD/KPD, what would this Germany look like?

My own personal guess is that this Germany would align with Italy, and Nationalist China. Von Schleicher's regime would in my opinion resemble Franco's regime, except the radical figure (in this case Strasser not Primo de Riviera) would still be alive, aswell as Hitler in the mix (unless he follows through on his threat to kill himself if the left wing nazis deserted him). I could see the Stahlhelm becoming von Schleicher's MVSN, personally I don't think he'd restore the Monarchy though it might be inevitable without going something close Strasserist which doesn't really sound like von Schleicher.

I don't think Schleicher really did have a shot, he was widely unpopular, Gregor Strasser was not in a position of power, his older brother Otto was and Otto was loyal to Hitler and rebuffed Schleicher (which got him purged for even talking to Schleicher later), and Schleicher scared everyone outside of Germany, who, like Poland and France, strongly considered invading and toppling a government with him as Chancellor/dictator. Likely if he somehow comes to power Poland would rush to Berlin to oust him with French backing.

 

[thezerech]

I don't think Schleicher really did have a shot, he was widely unpopular, Gregor Strasser was not in a position of power, his older brother Otto was and Otto was loyal to Hitler and rebuffed Schleicher (which got him purged for even talking to Schleicher later), and Schleicher scared everyone outside of Germany, who, like Poland and France, strongly considered invading and toppling a government with him as Chancellor/dictator. Likely if he somehow comes to power Poland would rush to Berlin to oust him with French backing.

Really? They didn't do that with Hitler, not after annexing Austria and the Sudetenland and Klaipėda and Bohemia. Yet they'd go to war against von Schleicher? Who they know is popular? I just don't buy it.

I could see France pressure to keep Germany from rearming, but they didn't intervene against Hitler, and von Schleicher will inevitably re arm at a far slower rate.

On the issue of his popularity, an early public works plan would have come to fruition after a few months, however before it could Hitler came to power and received all the credit for creating those jobs. If von Schleicher can remain in power he can probably reap the benefits of that program. He doesn't have to be popular with political parties, he has to be popular with the people. Desperate people will back whoever puts food in their mouths and money in their pockets. Von Schleicher is unlikely to be an exception.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Really? They didn't do that with Hitler, not after annexing Austria and the Sudetenland and Klaipėda and Bohemia. Yet they'd go to war against von Schleicher? Who they know is unpopular? I just don't buy it.

I could see France pressure to keep Germany from rearming, but they didn't intervene against Hitler, and von Schleicher will inevitably re arm at a far slower rate.

On the issue of his popularity, an early public works plan would have come to fruition after a few months, however before it could Hitler came to power and received all the credit for creating those jobs. If von Schleicher can remain in power he can probably reap the benefits of that program. He doesn't have to be popular with political parties, he has to be popular with the people. Desperate people will back whoever puts food in their mouths and money in their pockets. Von Schleicher is unlikely to be an exception.

First of all Hitler normalized relations with Poland, which was unthinkable for a Prussian. Then he signed a non-aggression pact with Poland in 1934 and actually ensured they got territory when he carved up Czechoslovakia, so Poland was actually pretty okay with Hitler until 1939 when he started making demands about an alliance and then Danzig. Poland didn't care about Hitler and Austria, Memeland, or Sudetenland and by 1938 Germany was too strong for Poland to fight anyway and Stalin was a threat. In 1933 when Schleicher would rise to power, he would present a clear and present danger and France would support them, that wasn't an option in 1938 or beyond if they tried to take out Hitler.

 

[thezerech]

First of all Hitler normalized relations with Poland, which was unthinkable for a Prussian. Then he signed a non-aggression pact with Poland in 1934 and actually ensured they got territory when he carved up Czechoslovakia, so Poland was actually pretty okay with Hitler until 1939 when he started making demands about an alliance and then Danzig. Poland didn't care about Hitler and Austria, Memeland, or Sudetenland and by 1938 Germany was too strong for Poland to fight anyway and Stalin was a threat. In 1933 when Schleicher would rise to power, he would present a clear and present danger and France would support them, that wasn't an option in 1938 or beyond if they tried to take out Hitler.

While I'm not saying the Poles would love von Schleicher the idea that they would declare war, especially on a legitimate government, and due to the public works program at least moderately popular government, is in my opinion unlikely. The British would through a fit, aswell as the Americans, who while probably not liking von Schleicher also know Poland is also a right wing dictatorship essentially and would stand with the legitimate government. The Soviet Union is still a threat in 1933, and with Poland invading Germany headed by von Schleicher who had cooperated with the Soviets in the past, the prospects of another Soviet invasion grow exponentially. While the Soviets are not in the best position at this time, the Poles do not know that.

 

[NoMommsen]

I don't think Schleicher really did have a shot, he was widely unpopular, Gregor Strasser was not in a position of power, his older brother Otto was and Otto was loyal to Hitler and rebuffed Schleicher (which got him purged for even talking to Schleicher later), ...

Can't agree with you here.

Gregor, NOT Otto Strasser was the power man. In midth to autumn 1832 he was in the NSDAP second in power only to Hitler himself and that was only due to Hitlers "charisma" he executed over almost every party member.
Gregor had build up the party and made it BIG. He controlled the whole party apparatus ... as well as the ones controling the purse of the party. He was the one feared and fought by every other party big wig, Goering, Goebbels (who was at rthat time subjugated to Gregor Strasser), Röhm, they all allied to bring him down in early December 1932 ("leaders"meeting), what forced him to put down all his party functions on 8th December 1932.

Otto Strasser was a party member on behalf of Gregor, in bad reputation for his "aligning" with the "reds" in the early and middle twenties.

Otto Strasser already LEFT the NSDAP in July 1930 and his own version of a party, the "Fighting community of revolutionary Nationalsocialists" (a few hundred, if so many at all) was swallowed up by the communist.

 

[raharris1973]

I don't think Schleicher really did have a shot, he was widely unpopular, Gregor Strasser was not in a position of power, his older brother Otto was and Otto was loyal to Hitler and rebuffed Schleicher (which got him purged for even talking to Schleicher later), and Schleicher scared everyone outside of Germany, who, like Poland and France, strongly considered invading and toppling a government with him as Chancellor/dictator. Likely if he somehow comes to power Poland would rush to Berlin to oust him with French backing.

Wow never heard that idea before!

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Can't agree with you here.

Gregor, NOT Otto Strasser was the power man. In midth to autumn 1832 he was in the NSDAP second in power only to Hitler himself and that was only due to Hitlers "charisma" he executed over almost every party member.
Gregor had build up the party and made it BIG. He controlled the whole party apparatus ... as well as the ones controling the purse of the party. He was the one feared and fought by every other party big wig, Goering, Goebbels (who was at rthat time subjugated to Gregor Strasser), Röhm, they all allied to bring him down in early December 1932 ("leaders"meeting), what forced him to put down all his party functions on 8th December 1932.

Otto Strasser was a party member on behalf of Gregor, in bad reputation for his "aligning" with the "reds" in the early and middle twenties.

Otto Strasser already LEFT the NSDAP in July 1930 and his own version of a party, the "Fighting community of revolutionary Nationalsocialists" (a few hundred, if so many at all) was swallowed up by the communist.

You're right, I got Gregor and Otto mixed up. Just swap Gregor and Otto in my post and it should read right then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Strasser#Conflicts_with_Hitler

In August 1932, Hitler was offered the job of Vice-Chancellor of Germany by then Chancellor Franz von Papen at the behest of President Paul von Hindenburg, but he refused to take it. Hitler saw this offer as placing him in a position of "playing second fiddle" in the government.[24] While many in his inner circle, like Goebbels, saw his resistance as heroic, Strasser was frustrated and believed Hitler was wrong to hold out for the Chancellorship. The ideological and personal rivalry with Hitler worsened dramatically when the successor Chancellor Kurt von Schleicher had discussions with Strasser as to becoming Vice-Chancellor in December 1932.[25] Schleicher hoped to disunite the Nazi Party with Strasser's help and to pull the left wing of the Nazi Party over to his "national conservative" side, so as to prevent a revolution or takeover by Hitler.[12] Hitler was furious and demanded that Strasser refuse Schleicher's offer.[12]

Strasser resigned from his party offices on 8 December 1932.[26] He officially exited politics by renouncing his Reichstag seat in March 1933.[27]

Gregor would need a personality transplant to work with Schliecher and betray Hitler.

 

[Max Sinister]

Yeah, Schleicher was good in making intrigues and had a list of scalps to prove it (war minister Groener, his ex-mentor to boot; Brüning; Braun/Severing), but was neither charismatic nor popular.