Why isEnglish a Germanic language?
- Thread starter Derekc2
- Start date
England was invaded and occupied by a number of Germanic tribes who brought their language with them.
But didn't the same happen with the Franks and they were assimilated. What I meant was why did the rest of Western european nations ruled by the Romans devoleped Romance languages but Engish form a Germanic language.
Pre-Roman, Brittania was Celtic. Then the Romans added Latin. 40-tish years after the Romans leave, the Germanic invasions began. In comes the Angles, the Saxons, and the Jutes (sp?). Hence, England (Angle-land). If you've ever seen Beowulf in the original Old English, you'll notice it is similar to period German. In 1066, William of Normandy invaded. Since, he spoke French, the language of government became influenced by French. Furthermore, since he hated English food, he brought French chefs with him. Meanwhile, the language of the masses remained heavily Germanic. That's why we have cows and chickens on the farm but beef and poultry in the kitchen.
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Flocculencio
Donor
The Franks were a lot more Romanised than the Anglo-Saxons and were Christians too. Thus their rule had some continuity or reference to roman language, religion and customs while the Saxons pretty much wiped out the existing Romano-British culture.
Delvestius
Banned
This is not so much the biggest reason... Regarding the Franks, they ended up adopting the vulgar Latin of the Gauls in their realm because, simply, the Gauls outnumbered them greatly. Britain was significantly less populated than Gaul, and it was a number of tribes that migrated, not just one, as was the case in France.
Of course, them being Catholic, and having to closely deal with the Romans did do a lot to influence the chiefs away from their Germanic tongue, which hastened the process.
The Romano-Britains and Celtic groups were pretty low in populated, so it was relatively easy for the new Germanic conquerors to displace the languages that were already there.
Flocculencio
Donor
It depends. No one is very sure what exactly happened when the Saxons arrived. It may have been a massive migration but IIRC the consensus nowadays is that it wasn't quite that massive. On the other extreme it might have been a very small migration with the Saxons simply takin over as a ruling warrior caste. The truth is probably somewhere in between.
It's a bit more complicated than that.......I guess if anything at all, it could be called a pidgin language, due to the fact that its origins are so diverse.
The theory want that English started as a germanic *créole* language, so a mix of both ANglo-Saxon and Normand French so the classes speak and understand each others... More or less what you meaned.
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Flocculencio
Donor
No it isn't. English is a Germanic language. There's a specific linguistic definition for 'pidgin' but English isn't one. It's part of the Germanic family of languages. The fact that it has a large number of loan words from other languages doesn't change that.
I Blame Communism
Banned
My understanding of the latest consensus is that the northern Germanic migration (Angles, Saxons, and Jutes were at the centre but the exporting area was bigger than we thought and reached as far as Sweden, IIRC) started as small groups of mercenary foederati on European lines, but became a significant resettlement in the southeast of England - there's apparently archeaology suggesting more-or-less abandoned villages back in Saxony - as sea-levels rose in places and the news went home.
But it took a very long time and the plague (which affected the Britons worse because of their trade with Europe) for the Saxons to gradually spread across what we now call England. In Bernicia, say, it might for some time have been a case of a Saxon warrior-elite and a mostly British population. The Britons and Saxons were not rigidly separate, either: Whatsisname-ap-Wulfstan and all that.
Of course the real question is why Britain didn't develop a vulgar-Latin derived dialect to displace Brythonic to start with.
But it took a very long time and the plague (which affected the Britons worse because of their trade with Europe) for the Saxons to gradually spread across what we now call England. In Bernicia, say, it might for some time have been a case of a Saxon warrior-elite and a mostly British population. The Britons and Saxons were not rigidly separate, either: Whatsisname-ap-Wulfstan and all that.
Of course the real question is why Britain didn't develop a vulgar-Latin derived dialect to displace Brythonic to start with.
This is to do with how deep Romanisation occurred in each place. Italy and Iberia were by far the most Romanised, and these were the places where Latin survived in its purist forms. France, slightly less so, but it was still tightly tied into the Latin world, and maintained a Latin grammar, albeit with a significant amount of Celtic and German words.
Britain was the least Romanised, particularly in the North, so Latin never got too engrained in the peasant population. Here, a Germanic grammar system replaced the local Celtic language in most of the island, although there was significant Latin influence, with the vocabulary becoming about half German and half Latin. In the West, however, the Celtic Brythonic language survived (later to become Cornish, Cumbric and Welsh). Later, the Normans invaded too, and French words were added to the mix.
Britain was the least Romanised, particularly in the North, so Latin never got too engrained in the peasant population. Here, a Germanic grammar system replaced the local Celtic language in most of the island, although there was significant Latin influence, with the vocabulary becoming about half German and half Latin. In the West, however, the Celtic Brythonic language survived (later to become Cornish, Cumbric and Welsh). Later, the Normans invaded too, and French words were added to the mix.
Britain may well have, but it would have been spoken largely in the south and east and the speakers of it would have been effectively wiped out by the Anglo-Saxons. Vulgar Latin wouldn't have displaced British in what is now Wales (and to a lesser extent Cornwall and Yr Hen Ogledd) for presumably much the same reasons that English didn't start to until the industrial revolution.
PoeFacedKilla
Banned
Because england is nothing more than German with a voul shift (plus 1000 years of slang.)
In reality, English is far more like German than any other language (including French.) The words are almost identical albiet they are pronounced very differently but if you really pay attention you can notice that they come from the same language not so long ago.
(i know this is a simple example, but just to add one)
English: Good Night
German: Gute Nacht
English: Good, Thanks.
German: Gut, Danke.
Welsh, Cornish and Breton is Celtic with a large dose of Romance (15%) because they had their history in the Brython language that existed before. This language was there when the Romans conquered Southern Britain.
The Anglo-Saxon and later English languages was never under the Romans, thus their structure was never affected. English is more a Scandinavian language then Central Germanic, because of the Viking Invasion and the establishment of the Personal Union between England, Denmark and Norway that lasted a while. It has a large dose of Romance, but not in the core part (the structure) because the English language's core was basically solidified by the Norman Conquest.
The Anglo-Saxon and later English languages was never under the Romans, thus their structure was never affected. English is more a Scandinavian language then Central Germanic, because of the Viking Invasion and the establishment of the Personal Union between England, Denmark and Norway that lasted a while. It has a large dose of Romance, but not in the core part (the structure) because the English language's core was basically solidified by the Norman Conquest.
Reseach historical lingusitics. English is a germanic language because it it is. All comparative and historical lingusitics makes this abundantly clear. As noted above, it shares an most of its base vocabulary (common words/concepts) with the other germanic languages, and their are a number of other key similarities. Languages do change, however, and the relative isolation of the British Isles together with the heavy overlay of French after the Norman conquest probably did lead modern English to diverge more from the ancestral germanic language than German, Dutch, and the Scandinavian languages.
Regarding why the Franks and Goths adopted a vulgar form of Latin when they occupied France and Spain rather than retain their germanic tougues, I don't know. My guess, however, would be that Gaul and Spain were much more thoroughly latinized than Britain.
Regarding why the Franks and Goths adopted a vulgar form of Latin when they occupied France and Spain rather than retain their germanic tougues, I don't know. My guess, however, would be that Gaul and Spain were much more thoroughly latinized than Britain.
Most everyone has covered the major bases. However, it should be noted there's a hypothesis, based upon the length of time estimated for Old English to separate from Frisian, that Germanic populations already lived in eastern England before the Anglo-Saxon invasions, possibly as far back as the Roman invasions themselves.
Essentially, the Roman terms "Celt" and "German" didn't mean the same thing that our modern terms did. The Belgae may have been an ethnically-mixed group, with some people speaking Celtic languages, and others speaking Germanic ones. The Belgae clearly invaded southern Briton during the reign of Julius Caesar, and cities like Portsmouth and Winchester appear to have Belgae roots. So it's possible Germanic languages were introduced even prior to the Romans invading Britain.
Mind you, this is a minority opinion.
Essentially, the Roman terms "Celt" and "German" didn't mean the same thing that our modern terms did. The Belgae may have been an ethnically-mixed group, with some people speaking Celtic languages, and others speaking Germanic ones. The Belgae clearly invaded southern Briton during the reign of Julius Caesar, and cities like Portsmouth and Winchester appear to have Belgae roots. So it's possible Germanic languages were introduced even prior to the Romans invading Britain.
Mind you, this is a minority opinion.