Why the Chinese play cricket (an Imperial Federation timeline)

Bad timing: investing in a new weapons system just as it's about be be overtaken by the introduction of smokeless powder.

Yeah real bad, but not the only ones who did that. The Germans had their Mauser M1871/84 and the Austro-Hungarians the Mannlicher M1885. Nobody expected smokeless. Plus the Lebel was rushed into production due to the intervention of Boulanger (he features heavily ITTL btw at the moment, might take him out), really should have been a few more years before it "hit the market."

Missing a "lack" here.

Thank you
 
Enjoying the timeline so far. It should be Prime Minister Macdonald though not Premiere. Premieres run the provinces, Prime Minister runs the country.
 
Enjoying the timeline so far. It should be Prime Minister Macdonald though not Premiere. Premieres run the provinces, Prime Minister runs the country.

Thank you. The issue of titles of the heads of government in the Empire were a little tricky in this period. Prime Minister referred to the PM of Britain with the Dominions having Premiers. I believe the provincial leaders at the time were called First Ministers. It all changed around the time of the Great War, when the Dominion heads got upgraded to Prime Ministers.

It's like at the time only diplomatic representatives between the Great Powers were Ambassadors and Embassies, everyone else got a Minister Plenipotentiary and a Legation. Technically the British and US didn't have ambassadors until 1893. Before then it was just Minister Plenipotentiary.
 
Last edited:
Jan-June 1886: Achieving balance
~Jan-June 1886: Achieving balance

January 1886: Since the Mahdist Uprising Emperor Yohannes IV of Abyssinia has been allowing Egyptian forces in Sudan to be evacuated through Abyssinian territory. This has resulted in fierce fighting between the Abyssinians and Mahdists. In retribution the Mahdists under Khalifa Abdullah Ibn-Mohammed launch an invasion of Abyssinia.

January 1886: The Federal Council of Australasia meets for the first time in Hobart. While its powers are limited and it has no mechanism for enforcing any decisions it reaches, it is hailed in the Pacific Dominions as the precursor to a full Imperial Federation.

January 1886: The Peruvian loss in the War of the Pacific has left a strong desire for revenge against the Chileans. The Peruvians have desired to rebuild their forces since their defeat, but the war has left their economy in ruins and such ideas have been well beyond their means. However, US President Blaine, seeking to build his anti Anglo-Chilean bloc in South America, offers US assistance. He proposes loans on exceptionally favourable terms to assist in rebuilding their army along with assistance in easing Peru's crippling debt from the war. The new Peruvian President Andrės Cáceres readily accepts Blaine's offer, ordering 12,000 surplus M1873 Springfield rifles in 0.45”-70 (11.6x53.5mmR) Government and several artillery pieces.

January 1886: Despite having only been in government for a little over three years, Campbell-Bannerman calls a new general election, hoping to capitalise on the enlarged franchise, favourable economic situation and goodwill generated by the relief of Khartoum to win an absolute majority. However the election once again results in a hung parliament, with the Liberals winning 320 seats, while the Conservatives take 219, Progressives 58, Irish Reform Party 51, and the Irish Home Rule Party 22 seats seats, leaving the Liberals 16 seats short of a majority. Campbell-Bannerman once again negotiates a confidence and supply agreement with Irish Reform Party. However its leader William Shaw, stung by the defection of the Parnellites, demands some firm commitment to movement on home rule. Campbell-Bannerman is able to satisfy Shaw's demands with a promise of effective Irish local government initially, with home rule to follow by the end of the parliamentary term. This agreement leads to another six Irish Reform MPs defecting to the Irish Home Rule Party. Campbell-Bannerman elects to retain Randolph Churchill as Colonial Secretary.

February 1886: Following the Guangxu Emperor's example, his three year old half brother Zaifeng is sent by his father Prince Chun to join the Emperor in Britain for his education.

February 1886: Prominent Liberal MP Charles Dilke is named as co-respondent in fellow Liberal MP Donald Crawford's divorce case. Crawford's wife Virginia does not appear in court and the only evidence is her husband's testimony reporting her alleged confession. The court finds there is no evidence to support Dilke as co-respondent but grants Crawford a decree nisi regardless, leaving Dilke's 'respectability' in question, with the journalist Thomas Stead questioning his ethics in a series of articles. Though he desires to attempt to clear his name by opposing the decree absolute, Charles Russell, his legal counsel, advises against it and he remains silent. While the scandal is temporarily damaging to his political career, it will recover within a few years.

March 1886: After requesting proposals from all major European shipbuilders, the Chileans eventually order the ships authorised in 1885 from Samuda Brothers in London, despite the French bid being lower. This results in considerable comment in the French press, with the British accused of unduly influencing the ordering process, biasing it in their favour. More significantly, the Chilean program causes alarm in Argentina and Brazil who, encouraged by the US, will order their own warships in response, sparking a South American Naval Arms Race,

April 1886: The new US administration of President Blaine, stung by the humiliation at the hands of Chile in the Panama Crisis and reiterating the intention to match the British in naval power, presents its first naval estimates. The estimates call for no less than six battleships, four monitors, again masquerading as repairs to Civil War era vessels, four armoured cruisers, six other cruisers and twenty torpedo boats, along with the establishment of a naval base in Puget Sound. Naturally this brings strong opposition in the economy minded Congress. However the humiliation at having to have backed down in the face of Chile proves vital in mustering support for the program. Eventually a revised program of two battleships and four armoured cruisers along with four monitors and eight torpedo boats, felt useful for protecting the coast. The provision for a naval base in Puget Sound is also retained, though scaled back. Ironically, the navy chooses to favour British designs for the ships, with the battleships directly designed by William John of Barrow Shipbuilding and the armoured cruisers patterned after the Brazilian ironclad Riachuelo built in Britain. While the program has been scaled back, Blaine's open declaration of his intent to challenge the dominance of the Royal Navy finally raises concerns in Britain, with many papers running articles decrying the state of the navy and calling for action.

May 1886: Since the formation of the International Working Peoples Association or Black International in 1881, the anarchist group has gained much influence in the US labour movement, agitating strongly for an eight hour work day and other reforms. In support of this goal a well organised general strike has been called. When police try to break up a rally at Heymarket Square in Chicago in support of the strike a bomb is thrown at the advancing police. In the resulting clash seven police and four demonstrators are killed. This act is portrayed as an example 'propaganda of the deed,' as advocated by the 1881 London International Anarchist Congress, leads to a massive crackdown on anarchist and labour groups in the US, with four leaders of the Black International executed for involvement in the bombing. This crackdown will all but destroy the anarchist movement in the US and much of Europe. However a number of prominent members, particularly Lucy Parsons and Johann Most will choose exile in Britain where they will continue the movement.

May 1886: In an initial attempt to keep his word to Shaw, Campbell-Bannerman introduces the Local Government (Ireland) Bill. The bill proposes to introduce directly elected local bodies throughout Ireland on the basis of the Parliamentary franchise, These new County, District and Town councils would have extensive powers, giving the Irish people a far greater say in decisions directly effecting them, ending the control of local bodies by absentee landlords. The bill is only opposed by the Conservatives and Irish Home Rule Party, thus passes easily through the Commons, as well as gathering widespread popular support at large. Fearing it is just the first step to Irish Home Rule, the Conservative dominated Lords return the bill to the Commons. The Liberals are outraged, calling for the reform or even abolition of the Lords. As with the constitutional crisis over Trevelyan's reform bill in 1884, Queen Victoria attempts to mediate a settlement. However Campbell-Bannerman is far less inclined to compromise than Trevelyan was. Eventually, with it clear Campbell-Bannerman is willing to go to the polls over the issue and likely to win, Lord Salisbury agrees to pass the bill, providing it applies to the entire United Kingdom, not only Ireland.

June 1886: In response to the Heymarket Bombing President Blaine arranges for the Mckenna Act to be passed, heavily restricting trade unions in the US. Though the act will eventually be struck down as an unconstitutional violation of free speech by the Supreme Court, it will greatly restrict the activities of the labour moment. The act prohibits strikes by workers outside a business directly involved in a dispute or strikes for 'political' reasons, allows the imprisonment of union leaders found to 'inciting violence, limits financial support for striking workers, allows for union leaders to be held directly responsible for violence which occurs during labour protests, and prohibits the involvement of anarchists in union activities or unions for exposing “anarchist principles.”

June 1886: The British begin reforming and retraining the Egyptian army. The new army is intended to include eight Egyptian and four Sudanese dual battalion infantry regiments, two dual battalion cavalry regiments, a single camel battalion, and eight artillery batteries. The new army is similar to the Indian with British officers in command of Egyptian troops. Like the Indian army however, the Egyptians will be equipped with obsolete British weapons.
 
Last edited:
July-Dec 1886: Planting the seed
~July-Dec 1886: Planting the seed

July 1886: It has become common practice for Canadian vessels to take fur seals in the open water of the Baring Sea off Alaska. However, the behaviour of the seals during the breeding season results in most of these seals being nursing females. Consequently the practice is placing the viability of the seal population at risk, and the US government begins capturing Canadian vessels engaged in this practice. Three such vessels are taken by the US revenue cutter Corwin and condemned for sale for violating Alaska law. The Canadian government, through the British still technically responsible for Canadian foreign affairs, protest and the vessels are eventually released. However as a result the US government will claim exclusive jurisdiction over sealing in the entire Baring Sea, on the grounds of protecting the seal population.

July 1886: In response to Chile's naval program the Brazilians order two small battleships and two protected cruisers from French yards. These ships are simply slightly modified versions of the French proposal for the Chilean ships which were eventually ordered from British yards. Wishing to avoid the potential for a re-occurrence, the French builders resort to large bribes to ensure they do not lose the order again. Nevertheless, the use of an existing design allows the ships to be laid down early in 1887.

July 1886: After the Russian war scare of 1885 the first subject for discussion at the London Imperial Conference is defence. The Pacific Dominions, for the first time including a delegation from Fiji effectively making the first non while Dominion, are particularly concerned by the prospect of naval raiders attacking their coastal facilities and cities. The Pacific Dominions agree to fund the construction of an additional five cruisers to be deployed to the Australian Station. The Imperial government also agrees to assist the Dominions in upgrading their coastal fortifications, with Canada being particularly enthusiastic regarding this matter. Yet again the Dominions express their disappointment the final Vancouver to Brisbane link in the All Red Line has not yet begum. However Colonial Secretary Randolph Churchill emphasises the formidable technical challenge involved in laying a 12,000km undersea cable. However he is able to point to the annexation of the Gilbert and Ellis Islands as clear progress toward this goal. Jan Hofmeyr, one of the delegates from the Cape Colony suggests the possibility of establishing an All Red Route of solely Imperial shipping companies servicing Imperial ports to mirror the All Red Line of telegraph cables. The proposal attracts considerable support and it is agreed to establish a committee to investigate its viability. Near the end of the Conference, Churchill raises the possibility of an Imperial Custom Union. All the Dominions are extremely reluctant to establish a customs union, Canada in particular, suggesting instead a more limited Imperial Preference scheme. Eventually a decision is reached to create an Imperial Preference tariff scheme, whereby each Dominion and Britain will impose lower tariffs on Imperial goods, but the exact level of tariffs is to be left to each individual government. Though a legacy of mistrust between the Dominions and Imperial government from the Sydney Conference remains, it is agreed the results of the Forth Conference are far more productive. Finally it is decided the next conference should be held in Toronto during 1888.

August 1886: The Austro-Hungarians adopt the M1886 Mannlicher straight pull wedge locking bolt action magazine rifle as their standard infantry rifle. Chambered for the 11x58mmR. black powder round, it replaces the long obsolete drum action single shot 11.15x42mmR M1867 Wendl-Holub rifle. Unlike most magazine fed service rifles which use tubular magazines, the M1886 is loaded with a five round en-bloc clip inserted vertically below the action. This not only increases accuracy by allowing the rifle's balance to remain consistent, it results in a massive improvement in the rate of reloading over individual rounds,

August 1886: Land reform in Ireland has brought about a movement similar reform in Scotland, including growing calls for Scottish home rule. As a result the Crofters Holdings (Scotland) Act is passed, The act for the first time provides security of tenure for Scottish crofters and establishes a Land Commission to resolve disputes between tenants and landlords.

August 1886: The US and Peru follow up their earlier informal agreement with the Treaty of Boston. The treaty grants the Peruvians large loans on attractive terms to assist with the crippling debt they accumulated during the War of the Pacific and provides favourable access for Peruvian goods to the US. In return Peru gives US goods reciprocal access to its market and undertakes to restrict the access of other nations. US companies and individuals are also to be given preferential treatment in regards to investment in Peru. The treaty also includes military provisions, with US naval and army missions to be dispatched to assist in rebuilding the Peruvian forces and additionally Peru is granted access to US military procurement system, allowing Peruvian equipment orders to be added to US orders, reducing costs. This last provision will result in Peru purchasing virtually all its military hardware from the US.

August 1886: Privy Council deliver their findings on the Gorst-Stout panel. The findings are highly critical of the defunct New Zealand Company, highlighting many examples of 'dubious' practices in their land purchases. Their Lordships state liability might attach to these practices, but they stress such liability would be a civil matter attached to the New Zealand Company, not the Imperial government, with evidence of collusion between the Company and colonial officials being dismissed. Their Lordships acknowledge that since the New Zealand Company was wound up in 1850, there is no possibility of bringing civil suit, but offer no other potential remedy other than a passing mention the New Zealand Constitution Act of 1852 contains a mechanism to settle the company's outstanding debts. Regarding the First Taranaki War, the Council finds no fault on the Imperial government's part, either regarding its outbreak or conduct. However their Lordships do mildly criticise then Governor Thomas Browne, suggesting a more considered initial approach may have avoided war. In this context they also praise British General Thomas Pratt, who had expressed concerns over the Waitara Purchase which sparked the war. Though that he had in fact expressed serious doubts about its validity in entirety is not mentioned. Regardless having determined no injustice took place, their Lordships make no recommendations regarding the war. In short, their Lordships find Māori have suffered injustice, while at the same time finding there is no way this can be rectified. As a token gesture, Campbell-Bannerman convinces New Zealand Premier Stout to uses the provisions of the New Zealand Constitution Act to divert 25% of the sale of any remaining Crown Land purchased by the New Zealand Company to set up a fund for Māori welfare. However Stout caps this fund at a Maximum of £10,000 {£11,649}. The Gorst-Stout Report and the Privy Council decision will have a long lasting effect on Māori land claims well into the 20th century, as both the British and New Zealand governments will regard it as full and final settlement of any grievances dating from before 1863 for over a hundred years and refuse to reopen the matter.

September 1886: Recognising India's potential to be something other than simply a captive market and source of raw materials, Secretary of State for India Lord Northbrook successfully gets India included in the Imperial Development Act. This will spur the development of industry and manufacture in India itself, slowly leading to its eventual industrialisation.

October 1886: Though the Land Law (Ireland) Act of 1883 has on average resulted in a 25% reduction in rents for Irish tenant farmers, the ongoing agricultural depression along with the general inefficiency of Irish farming is continuing to create considerable hardship for Irish farmers, which is blamed on excessive rents by landlords. Radical Irish nationalists William O'Brien and John Dillon of the Irish Land League publish a Plan of Campaign calling for tenants to offer landlords a lower rent and if refused pay no rent at all. To provide financial support for those engaged in rent strikes, the proposed rents, along with donations from supporters, are to be collected and deposited into an account and then distributed as needed. The plan is initially relatively effective, with many landlords agreeing to further reduce rents, however some resist resulting in renewed civil unrest. The Conservatives call for a new Coercion Act to deal with the unrest, but Campbell-Bannerman rejects such calls, preferring to attempt to negotiate a solution with the radicals, hoping for support from the Irish parties in Parliament. However the campaign has further split those parties. Shaw's Irish Reform Party, while not having spoken against the campaign, has not publicly supported it either, but Parnell's Irish Home Rule Party openly backs the campaign. This support leads to large donations to the Land League account for the support of striking tenants, not only in Ireland, but abroad, particularly the US and France.

November 1886: Argentina join the South American Naval Arms Race, ordering a pair of small riverine battleships. Despite President Blaine offering considerable incentives to order the ships in the US, the vessels are ordered from Cammell Laird in Britain.
 
Last edited:
A very minor update to get the US naval building program straight. Plus I just LOVE the way the USN was able to pull that "hey its a just a repair honest, see this nail's from the original ship" stunt off.

April 1885: Despite continued Congressional opposition, two new cruisers, a new monitor in the guise of repairs to a Civil War era vessel and an additional pair of steel gunboats are ordered for the US Navy. President Blaine is heavily critical of the limited size of the program, openly calling for a navy capable of challenging the British. Given the very limited size of the US building programs to date, these calls do not cause undue alarm in Britain.

April 1886: The new US administration of President Blaine, stung by the humiliation at the hands of Chile in the Panama Crisis and reiterating the intention to match the British in naval power, presents its first naval estimates. The estimates call for no less than six battleships, four monitors, again masquerading as repairs to Civil War era vessels, four armoured cruisers, six other cruisers and twenty torpedo boats, along with the establishment of a naval base in Puget Sound. Naturally this brings strong opposition in the economy minded Congress. However the humiliation at having to have backed down in the face of Chile proves vital in mustering support for the program. Eventually a revised program of two battleships and four armoured cruisers along with four monitors and eight torpedo boats, felt useful for protecting the coast. The provision for a naval base in Puget Sound is also retained, though scaled back. Ironically, the navy chooses to favour British designs for the ships, with the battleships directly designed by William John of Barrow Shipbuilding and the armoured cruisers patterned after the Brazilian ironclad Riachuelo built in Britain. While the program has been scaled back, Blaine's open declaration of his intent to challenge the dominance of the Royal Navy finally raises concerns in Britain, with many papers running articles decrying the state of the navy and calling for action.

=McUpdate=
 
Really enjoy the update just a small thing. I very much doubt the ability of Vancouver to host an imperial conference in 1888 or even the possibility that it would be considered to host one. OTL Vancouver was incorporated as a city in April 1886 so just 3 months before TTL Imperial Conference and had a population at the time of around 7500 people. Even pushing development with the All Red Line is only going to move this up a year or two and maybe get the population to 13,000 as Vancouver's development only really took off with the completion of the Railroad. At this time Vancouver is little more than a sawmill, railroad terminus, and a port. Vancouver's premiere hotel wasn't built OTL until the 1930's, even a considerably increased level of development wouldn't move this up 50 years.

If the desire is to have the conference in Canada Toronto or Montreal would be more appropriate being the 2 major cities by far in Canada at the time. If the desire is to have a Pacific city to highlight to importance of the Pacific currently in the empire may I suggest Victoria as an alternative. It is the capital of BC and will have more infrastructure to host dignitaries as a result. Additionally the accelerated naval development that is ongoing would mean Esquimalt next to Victoria would also have spurred development in the area.
 
Can you please elaborate on the popolulation of the dominions and emigration .


Well the OTL data is reasonably reliable (Bit hazy around Natal). However the ITTL is a off the cuff estimate.

OTL Population 1891
England 27.7m, Ireland 4.7m, Scotland 3.5m, Wales 1.8m, Canada 4.8m, New South Wales 1.152m, Victoria 1.114m, Queensland 0.364m, Tasmania 0.316, South Australia 0.151m, Western Australia 0.050m, New Zealand 0.7m, Fiji 0.121m, Cape Colony 1.5m, Natal 1m, India 287m
TOTAL = 335.678m

ITTL Population 1891
England 27.9m, Ireland 4.7m, Scotland 3.5m, Wales 1.8m, Canada 5.8m, New South Wales 1.32m, Victoria 1.18m, Queensland 0.42m, Tasmania 0.34m, South Australia 0.17m, Western Australia 0.07m, New Zealand 0.85m, Fiji 0.13m, Cape Colony 1.6m, Natal 1.1m, India 289m
TOTAL = 339.06m

Most of the UK is the same but England has lost less in migration to the US and picked up more from Eastern Europe. Canada has picked up both from the UK and US. The rest of the Dominions a bit more from the UK. India's population growth is a little down, but the Great Indian Famine (1876-78) death toll was several million down. The Dominions have picked up about a million that in the OTL went to the US.

Breaking it up by region
OTL = Canada 4.8, Home Islands 33.7m, Southern Africa 2.5, India 287m, Pacific 3.993m
ITTL = Canada 5.8, Home Islands 33.9m, Southern Africa 2.7, India 289m, Pacific 4.48m
 
Really enjoy the update just a small thing. I very much doubt the ability of Vancouver to host an imperial conference in 1888 or even the possibility that it would be considered to host one. OTL Vancouver was incorporated as a city in April 1886 so just 3 months before TTL Imperial Conference and had a population at the time of around 7500 people. Even pushing development with the All Red Line is only going to move this up a year or two and maybe get the population to 13,000 as Vancouver's development only really took off with the completion of the Railroad. At this time Vancouver is little more than a sawmill, railroad terminus, and a port. Vancouver's premiere hotel wasn't built OTL until the 1930's, even a considerably increased level of development wouldn't move this up 50 years.

If the desire is to have the conference in Canada Toronto or Montreal would be more appropriate being the 2 major cities by far in Canada at the time. If the desire is to have a Pacific city to highlight to importance of the Pacific currently in the empire may I suggest Victoria as an alternative. It is the capital of BC and will have more infrastructure to host dignitaries as a result. Additionally the accelerated naval development that is ongoing would mean Esquimalt next to Victoria would also have spurred development in the area.

Thank you, I wasn't aware of that. At the moment the Imp Conference are rotating Canada/southern Africa/Pacific/UK. So it was Canada's turn. The ATL doesn't actually get finished until around 1892-4 (that 12,000km ocean is tricky and there's some REALLY nasty seabed terrain along the way). I'll look into Victoria. But would Quebec work as an alternative? Can't put it in Montreal, they had one in 1880. What's Ottawa like if you happen to know lol.
 
Last edited:
Thank you, I wasn't aware of that. At the moment the Imp Conference are rotating Canada/southern Africa/Pacific/UK. So it was Canada's turn. The ATL doesn't actually get finished until around 1892-4 (that 12,000km ocean is tricky and there's some REALLY nasty seabed terrain along the way). I'll look into Victoria. But would Quebec work as an alternative? Can't put it in Montreal, they had one in 1880. What's Ottawa like if you happen to know lol.
Anywhere in Quebec would likely at the very least be commented on considering "French" Canada hosted in 1880 so it would have to be somewhere in "English" Canada. Toronto is the largest city in Canada outside of Montreal, Ottawa is the national capital so likely would work as well. If you want something a bit different Halifax would also work well; established population, is a port so easy access for the various governments, and in English Canada so would balance out Montreal.
 
Really enjoy the update just a small thing. I very much doubt the ability of Vancouver to host an imperial conference in 1888 or even the possibility that it would be considered to host one. OTL Vancouver was incorporated as a city in April 1886 so just 3 months before TTL Imperial Conference and had a population at the time of around 7500 people. Even pushing development with the All Red Line is only going to move this up a year or two and maybe get the population to 13,000 as Vancouver's development only really took off with the completion of the Railroad. At this time Vancouver is little more than a sawmill, railroad terminus, and a port. Vancouver's premiere hotel wasn't built OTL until the 1930's, even a considerably increased level of development wouldn't move this up 50 years.

If the desire is to have the conference in Canada Toronto or Montreal would be more appropriate being the 2 major cities by far in Canada at the time. If the desire is to have a Pacific city to highlight to importance of the Pacific currently in the empire may I suggest Victoria as an alternative. It is the capital of BC and will have more infrastructure to host dignitaries as a result. Additionally the accelerated naval development that is ongoing would mean Esquimalt next to Victoria would also have spurred development in the area.

Plus there's a change with the French Canadians. Riel doesn't get executed. The alt US president Blaine kicked up a stink because he's also a US citizen and Macdonald backed down.
 
Well the OTL data is reasonably reliable (Bit hazy around Natal). However the ITTL is a off the cuff estimate.

OTL Population 1891
England 27.7m, Ireland 4.7m, Scotland 3.5m, Wales 1.8m, Canada 4.8m, New South Wales 1.152m, Victoria 1.114m, Queensland 0.364m, Tasmania 0.316, South Australia 0.151m, Western Australia 0.050m, New Zealand 0.7m, Fiji 0.121m, Cape Colony 1.5m, Natal 1m, India 287m
TOTAL = 335.678m

ITTL Population 1891
England 27.9m, Ireland 4.7m, Scotland 3.5m, Wales 1.8m, Canada 5.8m, New South Wales 1.32m, Victoria 1.18m, Queensland 0.42m, Tasmania 0.34m, South Australia 0.17m, Western Australia 0.07m, New Zealand 0.85m, Fiji 0.13m, Cape Colony 1.6m, Natal 1.1m, India 289m
TOTAL = 339.06m

Most of the UK is the same but England has lost less in migration to the US and picked up more from Eastern Europe. Canada has picked up both from the UK and US. The rest of the Dominions a bit more from the UK. India's population growth is a little down, but the Great Indian Famine (1876-78) death toll was several million down. The Dominions have picked up about a million that in the OTL went to the US.

Breaking it up by region
OTL = Canada 4.8, Home Islands 33.7m, Southern Africa 2.5, India 287m, Pacific 3.993m
ITTL = Canada 5.8, Home Islands 33.9m, Southern Africa 2.7, India 289m, Pacific 4.48m
That should have some interesting repercussions , a bigger white population in south africa should change some things , have you considered rhodesia , will it be a dominion in the future ?
 
Anywhere in Quebec would likely at the very least be commented on considering "French" Canada hosted in 1880 so it would have to be somewhere in "English" Canada. Toronto is the largest city in Canada outside of Montreal, Ottawa is the national capital so likely would work as well. If you want something a bit different Halifax would also work well; established population, is a port so easy access for the various governments, and in English Canada so would balance out Montreal.

Well I've pulled the census data for Canada in the period (1881, 1891, 1901, 1911). I'm assuming you need a minimum of 50-80K population at a bare minimum for an Imperial Conference, 100K being much better. Only Montreal, Toronto, and Quebec realistically can host, maybe Ottawa or Halifax, but a bit iffy. As you point out, I can't put it in Quebec, so has has to be Toronto in 1888, with probably Ottawa in 1896. and Quebec in 1904. Not sure about 1912 yet, but by then hopefully a few more cities available.
 
Last edited:
That should have some interesting repercussions , a bigger white population in south africa should change some things , have you considered rhodesia , will it be a dominion in the future ?

The race issue in southern Africa ia a difficult one. Until about 1880 Cape Colony was distinctly non-racist (Natal not so much). But after that you have the rise of the Afrikaner Bond and ITTL an influx of racist settlers from Britain. If anything the increased migration will make things worse IMHO. You have nowhere near enough immigrants to swamp the indigenous people (not even remotely close) but more than enough to make racism worse. But in the 3rd Iteration Southern, Rhodesia joined the Union of South Africa, Things are looking on course for the same this time round.
 
Last edited:
The race issue in southern Africa ia a difficult one. Until about 1880 Cape Colony was distinctly non-racist (Natal not so much). But after that you have the rise of the Afrikaner Bond and ITTL an influx of racist settlers from Britain. If anything the increased migration will make things worse IMHO. You have nowhere near enough immigrants to swamp the indigenous people but more than enough to make racism worse. But in the 3rd Iteration Southern, Rhodesia joined the Union of South Africa, Things are looking on course for the same this time round.
I could be wrong but iotl wasnt there was welth quotas for immigrants , this was because they did not want « indesarable whites », if they abandoned that the immigration could be huge , the affrikaners would hate that ( they would became a minority ), the racist goverment of south africa could do this to « whiten the cowntry» ,Brasil did this , but still not enough to swamp the natives i agree .
The racism will be a problem .
 
I could be wrong but iotl wasnt there was welth quotas for immigrants , this was because they did not want « indesarable whites », if they abandoned that the immigration could be huge , the affrikaners would hate that ( they would became a minority ), the racist goverment of south africa could do this to « whiten the cowntry» ,Brasil did this , but still not enough to swamp the natives i agree .
The racism will be a problem .

Oh yeah definitely a factor. If you look at the number Canada is about 20% up, the Pacific about 12% up while South Africa is only about 8% up. Canand picked up a significant amount from the US during the Long Depression (probably about 20% of that increase, (so 4% increase from US and 16% from UK). But mot of those UK migrants are from Ireland and Scotland, rather than England, so the South African policies discourage those.

And yes racism is going to raise its very ugly head ITTL and I mean BIG TIME. Not only do you have the racism exported from the UK, but I'm five or six years in advance of what I'm posting and anti-Jewish racism is going to a BIG issue in Europe with a Jewish diaspora seeming quite likely.

ASIDE: I am afraid I do not use the word antisemitism. I see the Jewish people as a distinct ethnic group (they have their own unique language, culture, history, beliefs etc, all the things which define a ethnicity or "race," a word I also try to avoid btw). So I refer to the hatred of the Jewish people as racism. I do apologise if anyone is offended by that, but it is how I live my life. If anyone doubts my motivations, I have had the immense privilege of spending a time talking with a survivor of the Nazi death camps one on one. It was a profoundly moving experience, probably in the top two or three experiences which have shaped my beliefs.
 
I could see the south african government in the future getting more and more desperate and incentivazing immigratiomn from any cowntry in europe not just the uk , the european population is booming and that will continue for a while .
will there be a strong anti jewish sentiment in the dominions or england ? i never considered that .
 
I could see the south african government in the future getting more and more desperate and incentivazing immigratiomn from any cowntry in europe not just the uk , the european population is booming and that will continue for a while .
will there be a strong anti jewish sentiment in the dominions or england ? i never considered that .

Sigh, I can't say too much without a spoiler. However there's a point coming up where European history zigs rather than zags. Seems fairly insignificant on its own but pretty sure it's going to have a significant flow on effect and possibly change one of the most important events in European history. Its likely SA will get a ready source of non-British migrants. How it will effect things, can't see yet.

And Anti Jewish entiment in the Empire. Its better than most of Europe. They've already rescued a few 100Ks from the Russian pogroms. But the more they rescue the worse anti Jewish feeling in the UK gets,
 
Sigh, I can't say too much without a spoiler. However there's a point coming up where European history zigs rather than zags. Seems fairly insignificant on its own but pretty sure it's going to have a significant flow on effect and possibly change one of the most important events in European history. Its likely SA will get a ready source of non-British migrants. How it will effect things, can't see yet.

And Anti Jewish entiment in the Empire. Its better than most of Europe. They've already rescued a few 100Ks from the Russian pogroms. But the more they rescue the worse anti Jewish feeling in the UK gets,
Cant wait to read it ;)
 
Top