WI: A very different concept of the Trinity

[Historico]

Worship of a "Queen of Heaven", in Hebrew Malkath haShamayim (מלכת השמים) is recorded in the Book of the Prophet Jeremiah, circa 628 BC, in the context of the Prophet condemning such religious worship as blasphemy and a violation of the teachings of the God of Israel. In Jeremiah 7:18:

"The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger."[14]
In Jeremiah 44:15-18:

"Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present—a large assembly—and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, said to Jeremiah, "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine." "[15]
It should be remembered in this context that there was a temple of Yahweh in Egypt at that time that was central to the Jewish community at Elephantine in which Yahweh was worshipped in conjunction with the goddess Anath (also named in the temple papyri as Anath-Bethel and Anath-Iahu).[16].

The goddesses Asherah, Anath and Astarte first appear as distinct and separate deities in the tablets discovered in the ruins of the library of Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra, Syria), although some Biblical scholars who have not explored the earlier documented evidence tend to jumble all these goddesses together.

John Day states that "there is nothing in first-millennium BC texts that singles out Asherah as 'Queen of Heven' or associates her particularly with the heavens at all."

So what would it take for Judiasm to remain henothestic or atleast duological in their worship of both Yaweh post-the return to Jerusalem after the Babylonian activity? Would the worship of two-true gods change the nature of the hebrews?And how might effect their sociopolitical interactions with the other much more powerful kingdoms of the near east? How might the story of Jesus be shifted in alternate divine family? Please Discuss

 

[Jester]

You won't get anything resembling Christianity, so kind of a pointless discussion, isn't it?

 

[Lord Grattan]

So what would it take for Judiasm to remain henothestic or atleast duological in their worship of both Yaweh post-the return to Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity?

Judaism was not at any point in time a henothestic religion. The foundational statement of Jewish faith is, "Hear O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." (Deut. 6:4-5 RSV) Then a few verses later, "You shall not go after the other gods, of the gods of the people around you; for the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; lest the anger of the Lord your God be kindled against you, and destroy you from off the face of the earth." (Deut. 6:14-15 RSV)

Now, "blasphemony" and "apostacy" certainly did abound, and deities other then YHWH (Yahweh) were given praise, honor, devotion & adoration (ie. worshipped) as you point out. That, however, doen't mean that judaism was henothestic. It simply meany that blasphemy and apostacy were rampant.

That said, your question more properly is something along the line of, What would it take for Judaism to cast off all pretenses of monotheism during the post Babylonian captivity era? The answer is that it would take a lot for that to happen. After all, it was when the Jewish people willfully ignored and rejected the foundational statement of their faith and the covenantal promise made between them and the Lord God that their nation and identity crumbled in the first place. The post exilic understanding of the situation was along the lines of, We possessed the knowledge of and were in a covenant relationship with the one true and living God, yet we willfully abandoned it all and replaced the one true and living God with cheap, fake, inanimate deities of our own making. For what you ask about to occur, this understanding of the situatiion would need to change. The place to begin would be to radically alter the message of key individuals such as Ezra, Nehemiah, Zechariah, Haggai.

Would the worship of two-true gods change the nature of the hebrews?And how might effect their sociopolitical interactions with the other much more powerful kingdoms of the near east?

Of course it would change them; you've altered their DNA - changed who they are. now, religion wise, they're no different from any other nation/ethnic group in the region.

How might the story of Jesus be shifted in alternate divine family?

By "the story of Jesus" do you mean the story of God's chosen one, the Jewish messiah, and do you mean the mechanics of & timing of events in Jesus' life or do you mean the message he proclaimed?

 

[MNP]

Judaism was not at any point in time a henothestic religion. The foundational statement of Jewish faith is, "Hear O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." (Deut. 6:4-5 RSV) Then a few verses later, "You shall not go after the other gods, of the gods of the people around you; for the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; lest the anger of the Lord your God be kindled against you, and destroy you from off the face of the earth." (Deut. 6:14-15 RSV)

Now, "blasphemony" and "apostacy" certainly did abound, and deities other then YHWH (Yahweh) were given praise, honor, devotion & adoration (ie. worshipped) as you point out. That, however, doen't mean that judaism was henothestic. It simply meany that blasphemy and apostacy were rampant.

It wasn't monotheistic either. Or at least, not they way I understand--it acknowledged the existence of other gods but YHWH was just stronger. As opposed to their being only 1 God and others false the way Christianity and Islam are today. That certainly seems like henotheism to me.

ED: Monolatry, not henotheism. I guess I mistyped.

 

[zoomar]

It wasn't monotheistic either. Or at least, not they way I understand--it acknowledged the existence of other gods but YHWH was just stronger. As opposed to their being only 1 God and others false the way Christianity and Islam are today. That certainly seems like henotheism to me.

ED: Monolatry, not henotheism. I guess I mistyped.

I would agree with respect to the early evolution of Judaism. In fact, the very language quoted by Lord Grattan can imply that Israel's loyalty to YHWH, not the existence of other gods was the issue. But by the time of the Roman occupation, I believe most experts would agree that Judaism had transformed itself into a true monotheistic faith: There is only one God and that God was YHWH.

 

[MNP]

I would agree with respect to the early evolution of Judaism. In fact, the very language quoted by Lord Grattan can imply that Israel's loyalty to YHWH, not the existence of other gods was the issue. But by the time of the Roman occupation, I believe most experts would agree that Judaism had transformed itself into a true monotheistic faith: There is only one God and that God was YHWH.

Anytime after Ezra is plausible for full monotheism I think. Possible Zoroastrian influences are always interesting to wonder about!

So to achieve the original WI: Perhaps no captivity? Or Cyrus never lets them go back? There seems to have been real differences between the religion as practiced by those left behind (lower classes) and the returning exiles.

 

[PaganMonarchist]

The Bible Unearthed

Judaism was, it is true, never polytheistic. The Israelites were originally polytheistic though. This has been proven archaeologically.

Simply have the Assyrians take Jerusalem in 701 BCE, crushing Hezekiah, who originated the idea of monolatry in Judah, or perhaps have Darius I of Persia force the returned Jews to let the three-quarters of the population who had never been deported participate in the building of the new Temple. The native Israelite pagans would have remained a major factor in Israelites life afterwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed

 

[AtriumCarceris]

I am one of those people who thinks early Judaism was probably Henotheistic. The way things are phrased in the Bible seem to suggest this to me personally, but I'm not a Bible scholar.

I'm not sure I could suggest how to keep Judaism Henotheistic however, because I don't really know what makes Henotheistic cultures drive towards Monotheism.