WI- English Brittany in the 1500s

[Madhukar_Shah]

The wars of the roses are definitely not my strong suit but I’ve just seen that apparently Edward V was meant to marry Anne of Brittany, with Brittany and England divided between their sons.

If this marriage goes through, but they end up only having one surviving son- can England support a war to secure Brittany if France decides that’s unacceptable?

Does it practically guarantee another English attempt at resurrecting English Normandy/Gascony or could it be a stable situation where the English are happy with just Brittany and Calais?

Would English Brittany lead to the decline of the French language in Brittany, or the increased relevance of French in England? With an English Brittany, I assume Cornish would just be seen as the version of Breton spoken in England- especially if Breton is able to become a more prestigious language to replace French in the duchy, this might mean cornish is able to halt its own decline and reverse it a little so it’s at least spoken throughout Cornwall itself.

There’s also a nice little symmetry with the King of England, Duke of Brittany’s heir being the Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall.

 

[Zestinobambino]

It would depend on how exactly Edward V was able to survive into adulthood; let's face it, Gloucester almost definitely killed Edward V and Richard of York. So for Edward to survive into adulthood and worry at all about what to do with Brittany, you'd have to make sure that Gloucester never usurped the throne. Easiest way to do this would be to say that Lord Hastings never told Gloucester that the Woodvilles were going to take over the regency, so Gloucester never intercepts the Woodvilles on the way from Ludlow to London, so he never takes control of Edward V and never places him and his brother in the Tower. We end up with a Woodville-dominated regency council, probably led by Anthony Woodville.

This still leads to a very unstable court in the early years of Edward V's reign, and it probably overshadows most of his reign. The Woodvilles were very unpopular with most of the English nobility, especially with the powerful men of Edward IV's reign like Gloucester, Hastings and the Duke of Buckingham. If Edward V wanted to protect Brittany from France, he'd first need to sort out his domestic problems to make sure that his kingdom could actually handle a war with France without plunging back into civil war.

 

[BoleynBuff]

Easiest way to do this would be to say that Lord Hastings never told Gloucester that the Woodvilles were going to take over the regency, so Gloucester never intercepts the Woodvilles on the way from Ludlow to London, so he never takes control of Edward V and never places him and his brother in the Tower.

Alternatively, Mary of Burgundy could survive, meaning that the betrothal between Elizabeth of York and Charles VIII would not be broken. Gloucester won't usurp the throne if his eldest niece is married to a foreign monarch.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

Alternatively, Mary of Burgundy could survive, meaning that the betrothal between Elizabeth of York and Charles VIII would not be broken. Gloucester won't usurp the throne if his eldest niece is married to a foreign monarch.

Is that because his usurpation otl was justified on the illegitimacy of said niece and her siblings?

Even if he doesn’t usurp the throne this version of events would probably still have him executing the Woodvilles so as to dominate the regency council right? Or alternatively Wikipedia says the venetians planned for Anthony Woodville to marry Catarina Cornaro and become king of Cyprus- if he knew his domestic position had collapsed vis a vis Gloucester, could he be forced into committing to that life?

It’d be interesting to see a world where instead of becoming a Venetian possession and thus directly conquered by the ottomans, the kingdom of Cyprus under the Woodville dynasty becomes an ottoman vassal like Wallachia or Moldavia, probably eventually converting to orthodoxy due to repeated intermarriage with phanariotes or simply being replaced down the line with a phanariote dynasty.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

I wonder how such a union would affect the Breton culture and language. Would it survive more strongly, or would it eventually still be subsumed by English? Would the English push for Anglicisation like the French did in OTL?

 

[Avrorrange]

It will probably resurrect the Hundred Years War, only this time the English are easily pushed out.

 

[Raferty]

It will probably resurrect the Hundred Years War, only this time the English are easily pushed out.

That depends on other fronts for France not being an issue

They were in OTL very worried for example by Edward IV's invasion and Louis XI basically ended up bribing him to go away, when formerly they would have met such action by crushing the English Army, as they did in 1452 in Aquitaine

France in the late 15th century was still not internally cohesive enough to consistently make use of the available military resources and the Burgundians could still be a wildcard

I think the English long term would struggle to control large land holdings on the continent, but that is also contingent on the Breton project being a failure

Just about nobody on the continent much liked the English way of doing things on the continent, which was to burn and pillage large swathes of adjacent land to weaken it's nobles capacity to resist, but the French policy of attempting to centralize power was even less popular. I'd imagine in the case of a surviving Burgundian State, there would be alliances of convenience made w/ the English that would fall into squabbling if they looked to be too powerful. The same thing after all happened in the 1420s

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

I wonder how such a union would affect the Breton culture and language. Would it survive more strongly, or would it eventually still be subsumed by English? Would the English push for Anglicisation like the French did in OTL?

I don’t think anglicisation would be nearly as successful as gallicisation because there isn’t already a large english speaking peasant community in the duchy and there isn’t at least half a Millenium of English bilingualism among the nobility.

French might remain the official language of the duchy for a while- but I think obviously not being part of France will eventually strengthen the position of Breton, and English won’t have the prestige to replace french as an official language until at least the 19th century.

I'd imagine in the case of a surviving Burgundian State, there would be alliances of convenience made w/ the English that would fall into squabbling if they looked to be too powerful.

Would that not also be the Habsburg policy if they still get the Burgundian inheritance? Surely anything to keep a dagger pointed at the heart of France would sound attractive to Charles V, and might result in the habsburgs also getting the french duchy of burgundy, or even Provence as was demanded in the treaty of Madrid otl.

 

[Raferty]

I don’t think anglicisation would be nearly as successful as gallicisation because there isn’t already a large english speaking peasant community in the duchy and there isn’t at least half a Millenium of English bilingualism among the nobility.

French might remain the official language of the duchy for a while- but I think obviously not being part of France will eventually strengthen the position of Breton, and English won’t have the prestige to replace french as an official language until at least the 19th century.



Would that not also be the Habsburg policy if they still get the Burgundian inheritance? Surely anything to keep a dagger pointed at the heart of France would sound attractive to Charles V, and might result in the habsburgs also getting the french duchy of burgundy, or even Provence as was demanded in the treaty of Madrid otl.

It would, but they'd also be more wary I think than the Burgundians would about getting sucked into fighting England's wars, as it had many other commitments. The Burgundians were always spoiling for a fight with the French court and had a lot more to gain from a powerful (but not too powerful) English force on the continent

 

[FalconHonour]

Personally, I always prefer the following configuration - Elizabeth goes to France, so Gloucester doesn't usurp the throne, Edward marries Margaret of Austria (you know Margaret of York would be pushing for it) and Richard of Shrewsbury is the brother that marries Anne of Brittany. They're closer in age, and it would keep Brittany more independent than marrying her to Edward.

 

[Zestinobambino]

Personally, I always prefer the following configuration - Elizabeth goes to France, so Gloucester doesn't usurp the throne, Edward marries Margaret of Austria (you know Margaret of York would be pushing for it) and Richard of Shrewsbury is the brother that marries Anne of Brittany. They're closer in age, and it would keep Brittany more independent than marrying her to Edward.

I quite like that to be fair

 

[isabella]

Personally, I always prefer the following configuration - Elizabeth goes to France, so Gloucester doesn't usurp the throne, Edward marries Margaret of Austria (you know Margaret of York would be pushing for it) and Richard of Shrewsbury is the brother that marries Anne of Brittany. They're closer in age, and it would keep Brittany more independent than marrying her to Edward.

Well, I have done something on that lines with Lotharingia and maybe I am working on something closer to that…
My greatest issue with that a scenario is who Margaret is a full ten year younger than Edward V while Anne at least is only seven years younger while Joanna of Castile is nine years younger… Still Elizabeth would not go in France in time unless her father lived at least a year and half longer than OTL

 

[jacob ningen]

It would depend on how exactly Edward V was able to survive into adulthood; let's face it, Gloucester almost definitely killed Edward V and Richard of York. So for Edward to survive into adulthood and worry at all about what to do with Brittany, you'd have to make sure that Gloucester never usurped the throne. Easiest way to do this would be to say that Lord Hastings never told Gloucester that the Woodvilles were going to take over the regency, so Gloucester never intercepts the Woodvilles on the way from Ludlow to London, so he never takes control of Edward V and never places him and his brother in the Tower. We end up with a Woodville-dominated regency council, probably led by Anthony Woodville.

This still leads to a very unstable court in the early years of Edward V's reign, and it probably overshadows most of his reign. The Woodvilles were very unpopular with most of the English nobility, especially with the powerful men of Edward IV's reign like Gloucester, Hastings and the Duke of Buckingham. If Edward V wanted to protect Brittany from France, he'd first need to sort out his domestic problems to make sure that his kingdom could actually handle a war with France without plunging back into civil war.

I mean it could be a Henry II will no one rid me situation or a Herod.

 

[FalconHonour]

Well, I have done something on that lines with Lotharingia and maybe I am working on something closer to that…
My greatest issue with that a scenario is who Margaret is a full ten year younger than Edward V while Anne at least is only seven years younger while Joanna of Castile is nine years younger… Still Elizabeth would not go in France in time unless her father lived at least a year and half longer than OTL

Well, Margaret of Austria was sent to France as a toddler. I could see Elizabeth being sent at 12 or so to finish her education. It's only the consummation of the marriage that has to wait until Charles turns 14, after all. They can easily be married by proxy before that. As long as Elizabeth is out of England and therefore out of Richard's clutches, that's all that really matters...

 

[Zestinobambino]

I mean it could be a Henry II will no one rid me situation or a Herod.

I'm assuming you mean Edward V says will no-one rid me of Gloucester? That'd be interesting to see, it would vastly undermine Edward's credibility in the north I imagine

 

[jacob ningen]

I'm assuming you mean Edward V says will no-one rid me of Gloucester? That'd be interesting to see, it would vastly undermine Edward's credibility in the north I imagine

other way around. More edward's OTL death was Gloucester saying will no one rid me of my nephew not directly killing the Princes in the Tower.

 

[isabella]

Well, Margaret of Austria was sent to France as a toddler. I could see Elizabeth being sent at 12 or so to finish her education. It's only the consummation of the marriage that has to wait until Charles turns 14, after all. They can easily be married by proxy before that. As long as Elizabeth is out of England and therefore out of Richard's clutches, that's all that really matters...

Margaret of France brought valuable lands as dowry and the wedding was imposed to her father against his will, while Edward has no reason for sending away Elizabeth and give a valuable hostage to the French king

 

[Zestinobambino]

other way around. More edward's OTL death was Gloucester saying will no one rid me of my nephew not directly killing the Princes in the Tower.

Fair enough. It could be that, you're right, but personally I don't think so. But that's a debate for another day.

 

[jacob ningen]

Fair enough. It could be that, you're right, but personally I don't think so. But that's a debate for another day

I mean I get this mostly from Gloucester apologists on Quora. and debates about Targaryen Princes in the Tower. The argument generally goes that Gloucester having declared them illegitimate doesnt need them dead just not in a position to contest their legitimacy whereas Henry because he's deriving his claim from them needs them dead. One Targaryen similarity is Jahaerys and his nieces. He fixes it by declaring male preference primogeniture

 

[mcdnab]

It would depend on how exactly Edward V was able to survive into adulthood; let's face it, Gloucester almost definitely killed Edward V and Richard of York. So for Edward to survive into adulthood and worry at all about what to do with Brittany, you'd have to make sure that Gloucester never usurped the throne. Easiest way to do this would be to say that Lord Hastings never told Gloucester that the Woodvilles were going to take over the regency, so Gloucester never intercepts the Woodvilles on the way from Ludlow to London, so he never takes control of Edward V and never places him and his brother in the Tower. We end up with a Woodville-dominated regency council, probably led by Anthony Woodville.

This still leads to a very unstable court in the early years of Edward V's reign, and it probably overshadows most of his reign. The Woodvilles were very unpopular with most of the English nobility, especially with the powerful men of Edward IV's reign like Gloucester, Hastings and the Duke of Buckingham. If Edward V wanted to protect Brittany from France, he'd first need to sort out his domestic problems to make sure that his kingdom could actually handle a war with France without plunging back into civil war.

It is worth bearing in mind that there was no real Woodville faction at this point - it is Ricardian propoganda.
Irrespective of Edward IV's will (and the evidence is purely what Hastings is reputed to have written to Gloucester) - it had no bearing in law and it was clear the council or the members in London at the King's death were determined to rule on behalf of Edward V until his coronation which was set for the summer. Hastings concern was not so much about the Queen's relatives but rather her son the Marquess of Dorset. The reality is we have no idea if Edward V had a good relationship with either his uncle Earl Rivers or his half brother Dorset so we have no real ability to assume what might have happened in the future - though i expect assuming no usurpation that Gloucester, Dorset and Hastings would probably dominate any council of the new King in the short-term.