WI: There was a Pig War

D

“If we are weak in Canada, the Americans are still more vulnerable in the slave states… A British force landed in the Southern part of the Union, proclaiming freedom to the blacks would shake many of the stars from their banner” (Palmerston to Panmure, 24th September 1855)

This is really going to make things interesting. It gives the US a massive domestic headache, compounded by the competing forces of slave-owners and abolitionists, and shores up British public opinion behind a war of liberation. Black troops in red coats storming the White House? It'll make a good painting, at least.

That would be a massive miscalculation. Southerners would see it as a war of survival, and Northerners would put patriotism over abolition (outside of a few). Abolitionists would be viewed as unpatriotic. If anything, this might keep slavery around another generation.

The war would become a lot more brutal as well, and while Britain might lose the war, America might lose the peace due to becoming somewhat of a pariah state due to slavery. (The Brits would play that to the hilt afterwards)


If it's a short war- the Brits win provided they don't try to make any real gains in the peace.

A longer war benefits the US, and they can make real gains. A longer war with fury even moreso.
 
The only reason the British were able to pull off what they did in Crimea is because they were facing a power that lacked the means to effectively respond to a naval descent in force like what the British did.
Is this a naval response or a land response? In January 1859, the US Navy has in commission 2 sailing frigates, 15 sloops, 3 brigs, 1 schooner, 5 first class screw steamers (40 guns), 2 third class screw steamers (10 guns), and 6 paddle steamers of various classes. By comparison, the Russian Black Sea fleet which scuttled itself rather than face the Allies had 16 ships of the line, one screw battleship, 7 sailing frigates, 7 corvettes and brigs, and 12 paddle steamers. The Russians were concentrated in Sebastopol; the Americans are scattered across the world.

If it's land, the Crimea was the first British experience landing on enemy soil in about 50 years. Despite this, they fought at the Alma a week after landing at Calamita Bay, 35 miles away from Sebastopol. Given how long it took to get troops to Washington in 1861- Lincoln calls for reinforcements on 15 April and by 26 April there are only four regiments there- I'm not sure things are as clear-cut as you make out.

Palmerston doesn't have this problem (plus he was in pretty good health until he croaked).
On Palmerston's eightieth birthday, he leaves the house at 8:30, takes the train from Romsey to Fareham, rides his horse along the coast to Portsdown and Hilsea, crosses Portsmouth harbour to Gosport to inspect the forts there, and arrives home at Broadlands at 6PM. That's impressive for a modern 80 year old, so I wouldn't write the man off.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Okay, fair enough, but here are at least a couple:

I'll probably only do this once, since I don't like it when others do this sort of point-by-point debate, but you definitely know stuff, so...

Thanks.

Scott's an old-timer used to old war (in any case, too ill for command). Delafield will probably have to stay and look after coastal defences, and I'm not sure an armaments man like Mordecai wouldn't be staying at Washington. If the railroads are so important as many here claim, then railroad VP McClellan's expertise makes him the natural. I concede that Lee being made head is certainly a possibility, though again this raises questions about whether Lee was a good or a fortunate general (I lean towards the former).

Scott was the one who travelled umpteen thousand miles from New York, via Panama, to the Pacific Northwest over six weeks to negotiate the historical settlement; if Pam going for a horseback ride is (according to Mr. Craufurd) evidence of his capabilities as a politician, than I'd say a sucessful politico-military transcontinental mission is presumably evidence for Scott's abilities as a general.


Given Scott's involvement, and the general level of maturity on all sides, I see this as less of a likely causus belli/POD than the Trent Affair, honestly, and I find that pretty damn unlikely...but, if the balloon goes up in the San Juan Islands in (presumably) September, 1859, both nations need to exchange notes (no transatlantic cable, remember; it broke three weeks after being laid in 1858), say no to whatever compromises are offered, rally domestic support, mobilize from a standing start, begin moving troops, and then might be ready to attack "something" by winter.


I mean, with all due respect to the British Army and Royal Navy, if Sinope (November 30, 1853) is the causus belli of the Crimean War, it took until March 27, 1854 for the French and March 28 for the British to declare war; the Russians responded 11 April. Napier's fleet arrived in the Gulf of Finland in mid-April, where it mounted the assault on the Aland Islands in August (thanks to a division of 10,000 French, not British, troops), before withdrawing in September because of winter. In the Black Sea, the actual landings in the Crimea did not occur until the same month; it took the Allies five days to land 68,000 men and 137 guns (roughly 27,000 of them British; the remainder were French and Turkish).


Call it seven months from causus belli to significant combined operations; the same time frame in 1859 would suggest the British might be able to mount division to corps-sized operations by April, 1860...as a point of historical comparison, seven months after Fort Sumter (April, 1861, so call it November, 1861) the US had some 500,000 men, all regulars or 24-36 month volunteers, mobilized.


So with all due respect, there's a reason the British went through the Cardwell reforms in the 1868-71 period, after all.

As far as the unliklihood of the overall scenario goes, see:
http://www.nps.gov/sajh/historyculture/the-pig-war.htm

Best,
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
Probably not, actually

As pointed out, as the US army is bogged down in parts of eastern Canada, the RN is free to do want ever it wants, say goodbye to any and all coastal ports and cities from New England to Texas. In the west British troops can come from India, Aus and outposts in the far east, lets say 12,000?

France could say 'we can help out' and take New Orleans, the Mississippi is taken and the US cut in half. OK, that that's pushing it a bit, but hey.

Best out come for the US is that the borders remain the same.

Some of the southern states may ask Britain for help, they won't get it if they still hold slaves.

In 1859, the French have their own war going on already...pretty significant one, actually, which speaks to the underlying point in considering the possibilities of European interventions in the Americas in the Nineteenth Century that there was ALWAYS something more important closer to home for the European powers.

And as far as the RN "free to do whatever it wants" I'm sorry, that didn't even happen in the Russian War, and the Russian Navy never put to sea, and yet still managed to beat the RN and French at Petropavlovsk. The Allies never ventured to take on the Russians at Kronstadt or Archangel, and in fact were repulsed when they took a shot at Sveaborg in 1855. They did burn down Kola, however.

The records of the Continental and US navies in 1775-83 and 1812-15 would suggest the US Navy of 1859 is not going to blanche at the prospect of action with the RN...

And as far as British troops from India - um, no, not based on the historical lack of precedent in 1854-56, 1880-81, and 1898-1900. There was a concept called "white man's war" which, however much based on racism it was, was the historical reality of the era, at least until 1914.

Especially given that this putative conflict in 1859-60 and thereabouts comes AFTER a minor event called the "Mutiny"...and I'm speaking of the one by ethnically Indian troops, not the "European" troops of the EIC...

Best,
 
I love how these threads of UK vs. USA always turn into bitter grudge matches where both sides are convinced they'd wipe the floor with the other guys.
 
Here's another point that might make a U.S. advance stall:
the British have moved Canada's (the province of United Canada) capital to Ottawa, which at the moment is a small town surrounded by marshes...Lots of marshes due to the geography of the Canadian shield. Trying to reach the location will be difficult at best, and can help stall the campaign. Montreal and the Saint Lawrence also act as barriers to a lesser extent and can delay advances there if the Canadian-Anglo forces can beat them on the South shore.

Either one of these might make attacks 'seem' feasible in the winter (when the terrain isn't so wet) but that would also be problematic being winter in Canada:rolleyes:

South Central Ontario does not have the similar advantages and is closer to American Population centres so it may not be as lucky.
 
If Canada can survive the first winter, it's possible to salvage the front (it most likely will, the winter would be a brutal campaign). In 1812 the British proved that you could march from Halifax to Ontario in the dead of winter, and they might try to replicate the feat.

But the end of the day it's a numbers game. The British are slowly going to be ground down in Canada. But the Americans are going to watch her coastal forts cities burned while the blockade throttles the economy. The British probably land in San Francisco and take California, which might as well be the moon for as much as the Americans can initially do about it. I expect there to be a "great raid" at the Chesapeake or the Mississippi. All in the backdrop of a pretty important election.

I think it's going to be the Americans who blink first because of all the domestic issues, but both sides have a decent shot at victory.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Is it?

I love how these threads of UK vs. USA always turn into bitter grudge matches where both sides are convinced they'd wipe the floor with the other guys.

Or is it someone posts something provocative, and others respond with reasonable and even sourced counter arguments?

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
The problem with that is:

Here's another point that might make a U.S. advance stall:
the British have moved Canada's (the province of United Canada) capital to Ottawa, which at the moment is a small town surrounded by marshes...Lots of marshes due to the geography of the Canadian shield. Trying to reach the location will be difficult at best, and can help stall the campaign. Montreal and the Saint Lawrence also act as barriers to a lesser extent and can delay advances there if the Canadian-Anglo forces can beat them on the South shore.

Either one of these might make attacks 'seem' feasible in the winter (when the terrain isn't so wet) but that would also be problematic being winter in Canada:rolleyes:

South Central Ontario does not have the similar advantages and is closer to American Population centres so it may not be as lucky.

Ottawa was an administrative capital and quite small at this point; the key cities in Upper and Lower Canada are:

  • London
  • Hamilton
  • Toronto
  • Kingston
  • Montreal
  • Quebec
All of which, other than Quebec, were very vulnerable and either on the lakes or the Saint Lawrence.

And don't forget, the British garrison in BNA was at its lowest point ever after the Crimea, until confederation and the British withdrawal; there's a reason the British sent reinforcements to BNA in 1861 even before the Trent Affair.

Basically, the British Army presence in BNA before 1861 amounted to about four regular battalions of infantry and some garrison artillery. Even the circa-1859 US regular army would have outnumbered it about 4-1.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
When in the Nineteenth Century did the RN "burn"

If Canada can survive the first winter, it's possible to salvage the front (it most likely will, the winter would be a brutal campaign). In 1812 the British proved that you could march from Halifax to Ontario in the dead of winter, and they might try to replicate the feat.

But the end of the day it's a numbers game. The British are slowly going to be ground down in Canada. But the Americans are going to watch her coastal forts cities burned while the blockade throttles the economy. The British probably land in San Francisco and take California, which might as well be the moon for as much as the Americans can initially do about it. I expect there to be a "great raid" at the Chesapeake or the Mississippi. All in the backdrop of a pretty important election.

I think it's going to be the Americans who blink first because of all the domestic issues, but both sides have a decent shot at victory.

When in the mid-Nineteenth Century or later did the RN "burn" any cities in Western nations, other than Kola in the Russian Arctic (which was mostly wood)?

As it was, in 1861, VA Milne (c-in-c of the RN's North American station, and the individual expected to command any action in the aftermath of the Trent Affair) wrote the following:

The object of the war can of course only be considered to cripple the enemy. That is his trade and of his trade it can only be his shipping. No object would be gained if the Forts alone are to be atacked, as modern views deprecate any damage to a town. If ships are fired upon in a Port the town must suffer; therefore the shipping cannot be fired on. This actually reserves operations to against vessels at sea.

Likewise, as far as California goes, according to the 1860 census, the population of the US Pacific coast states (California and Oregon) and territory (Washington) was well over 400,000 "settled" individuals; the population of the BC and Victoria colonies less than 100,000 in 1862. Moreover, California's infrastructure included a naval shipyard, arsenal, and various manufacturing facilities; the closest equivalent in British hands would have been ... where, exactly?

In addition, the US Pacific Squadron and Pacific Department existed, in terms of military administrative structure, as did the state and territorial adjutants-general's offices; and the US-flag merchant marine on the Panama-California and California-Washington territory runs was significant, and included a large number of steamers. And the overland route, although arduous, was well-known, mapped, and passable in a single season, obviously - much more so than the equivalent in BNA.

If the British can manage winter marches from Halifax to Ontario, then the US can certainly managed winter rail movements to the railheads at Detroit, Buffalo, Plattsburgh, and Bangor - from which, winter marches to various important places are much easier than they are from Halifax or St. John, New Brunswick.

You know, the British tried "great raids" in the Chespeake and the Mississippi in 1814-15; didn't work out that well, as witness the fates of Ross and Pakenham.

And their troops.

Best,
 
While I tend to agree with most of TF had said some observations.

The RN might burn a naval dockyard which might get out of control but beyond that burning cities is not a mid Victorian thing.

While SF does have a naval dockyard its a repair yard and certainly not a gun foundry (also unguarded, the marines don't arrive until 62 I think) how capable it would have been at repairing engines is a moot point and for steamships it needs a coal stockpile.


The British Dockyard is Valparaiso BTW but Fort Vancouver could take reasonable sized ships.

The US Pacific Squadron is difficult to track down but in 1860 consists of St Mary's which is probably dead meat as she was sailing in close company with HMS Clio which is a) a steamship b) has a recent history poor repair and d) is outgunned somewhat.

Cyane which seems to be in transit

Levant which set out in June 59

Fredonia ( storeship) which is also based in Valparaiso

Lancaster which arrive Panama Bay in december 60 from Boston

Saranac which is there

Narrangasset which was on the east coast

Wyoming which is also on the east coast in 59

While steamships of the era are convertible into raiders they do have to convert and that means providing armament - which is far easier for the UK than the US overseas and probably coaling.

Also the USN has a sizeable and either shadowed or dead Med squadron.

On the British army you understate the size and overstate the level of disorganisation. To the regular forces would have to be added roughly double that number in the 3rd and 4th (militia) bns (3-5 in the Irish regiments) and 140k men rated efficient in the Volunteers, plus yeomanry cavalry. As it happens thse would have been at a fairly high state of training. There was a panic in 1858 over the Orsini affair which led to a jump in enlistments and great enthusiasm for training. Also the Childers reforms are mostly concerned with organisation and precendence amongst the Infantry and colonial garrisons not fighting on how to fight a major war. Several key reforms - the Military Train, Systematic training of medics ( 1860) were undertaken during the Crimean war, carried over to the Mutiny and just done rather than written about until the later 1860's.

All in all its not much different from the position of the US in 1860. with the exception that the US forces would be trained in the French style and suffer massive casualties initially as they tried to close against the brits.

The Us half a million man army is true OTL but the law at the time was for no more than 75000 men for no more than 3 months in any 12 so there needs to be a new law to make that happen. Absent a Bull Run thats not going to happen. And 500k was for a war for the survival of the Nation not for a Pig

What is feasible is 75000 men with probably some more volunteer home guards scattered protecting the coasts and trying to man some obsolete forts. The field force ( a guess this) no more than 35,000 men and probably closer to 20k maybe as low as 10k initially. The Mexican war model gives an initial force of 8k in the field rising to around 90k

You also miss out that of the three British Descents in 1812 one burns Washington, one requires 11,000 militia to defend against and needs forts ( which were generally ineffective in the 1860's) and the other results in what the British called a heavy skirmish.

TTL I would expect the average Americans reaction to a militia call to be 'if Mister Buchanan wants to fight a war he can go fight it'.
 

Cryostorm

Donor
Monthly Donor
I believe the biggest reason for the seeming inevitable argument is because from ~1860-1890 the United States and Britain had reached or were reaching a near parity in military and economic potential if a war broke out between them. While the British Empire may have had the world's largest and most powerful fleet and a small but professional army the Empire also had a lot of places it needs to garrison and protect either from rival European nations or native uprisings/invasions. The United States on the other hand was rapidly industrializing, had a population that was larger than Britain + Canada, no close threats other than Britain, and was at a point of near self sufficiency which would make the inevitable blockade, which would leak like crazy, less than effective. Add in the distance, trade, and history between the two nations as well as both of their internal issues along with what effects this would have on later geopolitics, since the Anglo-American friendship if not outright alliance heavily shaped twentieth century history, and you can see why both sides can get a little belligerent, like two close brothers arguing over who would win a fight but never actually fighting.
 
+1

Although I feel this is a little Brit-Wank as every single action they took here succeeded...

It's a massive Brit-wank, with the British seemingly infallible and the Americans irredeemable bumblers, but the U.S. likely would lose a war with Britain if '59 was when it happened. We had not built up then like we had by '61, in addition to which we had massive internal political and social divisions to be dealt with.
 
It's a massive Brit-wank, with the British seemingly infallible and the Americans irredeemable bumblers
I can't help but notice that no one has - yet, this time - pointed
out/claimed/implied that the US would win because to defeat the US
one has to conquer, hold and control every square inch of the US or
that each and every American is an expert marksman and outdoorsman*,
and the the entire population will melt into the wilderness for a
superpowered Boer War on steroids the moment the enemy comes within
sight of US territory. :)

*The people who live in Canada, on the other hand, are effete city-dwellers
who don't know which end of a bayonet goes in the other guy or which end
of a gun the bullet comes out of. :D
 
Surely the war aims would be the same as 1812? USA wants to seize Canada and Britain wants the USA to go away and stop being a nuisance.

Britain has to exercise it's naval advantage and command the USA coast, especially in the west. Then it can put an army ashore wherever and whenever it wants. Ideally a Mexican one backed up by a British reinforced Indian one on the Pacific coast. Why fight hard in the east when you can dominate the west? The USA would have to cross the Rockies in force or go via the southern deserts exposing their flanks to Mexican/British raids in force. Maybe even encouraging the Spanish to recover Florida. One should also factor in the Russian interest as they are north west american players at this time.

Can the USA fight a war on two fronts without also exposing it's east coast? The performance of their militia in 'defending' Washington suggests they need regular forces sufficient to invade Canada, attack across the Rockies or desert whilst also maintaining armies to resist assaults anywhere from New Orleans to Boston. Perm any 2 from 3 at best. Whilst foreign trade is reduced to fast smugglers evading the Royal Navy and the British Exchequer is boosted by trade that used to be American.
 
Seems to my inexpert eye that the British naval dominance means they can damage important US cities and interests pretty much at will. The US, on the other hand, no matter how things go with Canada, will never have any opportunity to damage anything in the UK.
 
That would be a massive miscalculation. Southerners would see it as a war of survival, and Northerners would put patriotism over abolition (outside of a few). Abolitionists would be viewed as unpatriotic.
As I saw it, if the question Can the people of a Territory in any lawful way, against the wishes of any citizen of the United States, exclude slavery from their limits prior to the formation of a State constitution? can lose someone the presidency, the question Should Federal troops be used to protect property in slaves? is going to cause someone serious problems at the very least.

The RN might burn a naval dockyard which might get out of control but beyond that burning cities is not a mid Victorian thing.
We don't have a lot of evidence to conclude either way, to be frank. I'll assume that American advocates will insist we discount Kagoshima and Lagos because of the colour of their inhabitants' skin, which pretty much leaves us squabbling over the events of the Crimean War. During the war, the British focused on low-collateral, high-value targets: fortifications and naval stores. Even if the British limit themselves to this kind of low-level raiding- burning stores deemed contraband, running off slaves, inspecting coastal traffic, etc.- there are going to be a lot of unhappy people.

The reason for the decision to avoid civilian casualties was in part due to Captain Bartholemew Sulivan, the hydrographic officer, who handed out Bibles to Finnish islanders and blocked attacks he thought endangered civilians, and in part due to the French, who vetoed a British proposal that Odessa itself be attacked as well as the forts surrounding it. There are suggestions that the latter was because Napoleon III planned to use Odessa as his base of operations when he took personal command of the French army in the Crimea. It would be ignoble of me to imply that the reason Helsinki is not attacked is because Royal Navy officers had a habit of attending balls in the city, but I'm just flagging up that that went on.

More importantly, there are indications that this humanity is not a ubiquitous attitude. I've not dug into editorials, but a quick perusal of Hansard reveals the following:

I ask, Sir, why is this particular indulgence to be shown to this enemy? What has been the policy of the British Government with respect to him? What are we to understand to be the wishes and the feelings of the people of this country upon this point? We did commence this war by exercising peculiar forbearance, and Admiral Dundas, having it in his power to destroy the city of Odessa, yet spared that city — he attacked only the batteries. There has been something like censure even cast upon him for his forbearance, and I must say, that I myself may now begin to partake of that feeling... Whether they be Fins or whether they be Russians, we have offered them battle on the open sea and upon fair and equal terms, and they have declined it... Well, I say, if they will not meet us on the open sea, we must visit them in their own homes, and teach them that a war with England is not to be engaged in with impunity. (Sir James Graham, First Lord of the Admiralty 1852-1855, HC Deb 29 June 1854 vol 134 cc920-21)

Had Odessa been Rome, Naples, or Athens, I can well understand the feeling which might have prompted us to spare it. But Odessa has no historic fame—it is not the repository of art. It is nothing else but a great depôt: one of the granaries, not only of Russia, but of Europe—a station for troops, and the place from which the Russian armies, both in the Crimea and Bessarabia, and, consequently, those engaged in an attack upon Turkey, and in war with us, are supplied. I respect that feeling of humanity which might have led you to avoid, if possible, a bombardment. But what, under the circumstances, would have been the proper course? It appears to me that you might, consistently even with your principles, have summoned the garrison to lay down their arms, and to surrender the granaries and military stores within twenty-four hours; and have declared that, in the event of refusal—giving them that period to send out their women and children—you would have used force. Do you think a Russian fleet would have spared Liverpool or Hull? (Austen Layard, HC Deb 12 December 1854 vol 136 c183)

Why did not our fleet raze Odessa to the ground—the granary of Sebastopol? (Admiral John Walcott, HC Deb 16 February 1855 vol 136 c1467)

Why had Odessa been left undestroyed? Had not subsequent events—had not the operations at Sebastopol—made it clear how unwise it was on the part of the Government to leave the town of Odessa untouched? Was it respected because it was a commercial town? But Odessa could hardly be regarded merely as a commercial town, when they found the extent to which it was fortified—when they found a large military force constantly established in it. (Sir John Pakington, First Lord of the Admiralty 1858-9 and 1866-7, HC Deb 12 December 1854 vol 136 c113)

Furthermore, I think we risk discounting the way in which attitudes can evolve in wartime. If you had suggested to the average citizen of the North in 1861 that winning the Civil War would require uncompensated emancipation and a 300-mile swathe of destroyed houses, mills, railways and telegraph lines, you'd have received much the same puzzled look as if you'd told a British person in 1898 that they were about to lock up half the Transvaal.
 
I can't help but notice that no one has - yet, this time - pointed
out/claimed/implied that the US would win because to defeat the US
one has to conquer, hold and control every square inch of the US or
that each and every American is an expert marksman and outdoorsman*,
and the the entire population will melt into the wilderness for a
superpowered Boer War on steroids the moment the enemy comes within
sight of US territory. :)

You may have something there. I was thinking more of a negotiated settlement in which the British came out ahead, but that depends on a lot of factors, and a lot of things could see America have a better time of it. Even so it is less likely in '59 than in '61 or so that they would come out seen as the outright winners.
 
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Mookie

Banned
I think a lot of people are led by their patriotism rather than true facts. In a war of US vs Britain, US has no hope. Its same as today asking what could Poland do against US.

Britain would blockade US completely. Bombard the forts on the coast and cities too. Since its the winter-time US wont attack. Unless it has a total idiot at its helm. If it attacks we are looking at a Napoleon in Russia situation. If they wait that gives Britain months to pull troops there from all over its empire.

Someone mentioned that blockade would hurt Britain more or as much as US. It wouldnt. Britain still has a 35 000 000 km/sq empire to count on. Thats 2 times larger than Russia today. With enormous population, 10 or more times larger than the US one.

Seconly Canadians are not incapable idiots who will cover in the basement at sight of US troops. They would fight back. Join with the British army ASAP.

And lets not forger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz6KB4YdKSs
 
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