Your own Spitfire wank

[tomo pauk]

IOW, make the success story even a greater one
Required is a much greater number of them produced, to be even more capable and earlier, including in weapon-lifting capacity, improvement in different roles, new roles, new users etc.Reduce the manhour count required. Lower the drag, improve the horsepower. All on tech of the day, of course.
Axe what you don't find useful, or don't like, to boost the Spitfire footprint on the ww2 and beyond.

I'll start the ball rolling with the Spitfire III being adopted, thus making LW's (as well as Italian and Japanese) task after the late 1940 much harder.

 

[Dorknought]

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

More Spitfires.
POD 1936 and RAF expansion Scheme F.

Have the RAF decide to have Fighter Command equipped entirely with Spitfires.

• Hawker builds them instead of the Hurricane. It might have built Griffon Spitfires instead of retooling to build the Tempest.
• Tempests were also built by Bristol. Have them build Griffon Spitfires instead if Hawker builds them instead of the Tempest.
• Gloster builds them instead of the Heney, Hurricane and the Gladiators ordered under Expansion Scheme L.
  • The latter includes 98 Seafires built instead of the 98 Sea Gladiators.
  • The Company might build more Spitfires instead of the Typhoon if Griffon engines were available because less production would be lost in retooling.
• 389 are ordered from Avro in 1936 instead of the Hawker Hotspur. However, the order is cancelled in 1937 and instead Spitfires are ordered from Boulton Paul instead of the Defiant.
• Austin builds them instead of the Hurricane.
• CCF in Canada builds them instead of the Hurricane and may continue to build them instead of retooling to build Helldivers.
• Belgium & Yugoslavia build Spitfires under licence instead of the Hurricane.
• Westland (which did build Spitfires & Seafires IOTL) builds even more of them instead of the Lysander and Whirlwind.
• The Castle Bromwich factory avoids its OTL problems with the result that it deliveries commence on time and in the quantities expected.

An alternative to the above is to have Vickers-Armstrong concentrate on building Spitfires by having the factories at Blackpool, Crewe & Weybridge build Spitfires instead of Wellingtons & Warwicks and the Hawker Siddeley factories (Gloster & the Hawker factories) build Whitleys and Lancasters instead of Henleys, Hurricanes, Typhoons, Tempest and as many Gladiators as possible.

Does making the Sptifire easier to build count as better?

 

[MKD]

Does making the Sptifire easier to build count as better?

that is the key to all of this.

And the Hurricane was needed. Spitfires dancing around in The Marquess of Queensberry rules style and demanding satisfaction when sometimes you just need a brown ale bottle to the head and a kick in the goolies to get the job done.

 

[tomo pauk]

Does making the Sptifire easier to build count as better?

Quantity is a quality of it's own

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Link to Post 3.

I forgot to include moving production of the Walrus to Saunders Roe in 1936 instead of 1940 so Supermarine can concentrate on building Spitfires.

 

[Sekhmet_D]

A variant of the Spit receives range equalling that of the Mustang circa 1941, butterflying the latter away entirely and allowing the Allies to take the aerial fight to the German heartland much earlier.

 

[naraic]

The Spitfire is categorised as the fighter that won the Battle of Britain despite the fact that the Hurricane was more numerous and had as big of an impact.

We need to boost the numbers first. This should be easy to do as the Spitfire was hard to build. Castle Bromwhich is famous for slowly starting production but the first order from Supermarine at Woolston was about 9 months behind schedule as well. Fix the two of those problems and get an extra 400 spitfires for the battle of britain.

I'm not sure how much you can expand production. The Spitfire was hard to build. That said, fixing production in the two historically factories to match what was promised should be a goal.

I believe the wing was the hardest part of the manufacture and almost cost a quarter of the cost of the whole Spitfire.

Secondly the Merlin engine. Avoid the ramphead (walk down the wrong path) and speed up Merlin development. This could see each mark of Spitfire 50-100 horsepower ahead of historical. This should mean that (if cannons are available) the Spitfire II will look more like the Spitfire III.

Also if the Spitfire is carrying more of the load with regard to the Battle of Britain there may be less need to prioritise the Hurricane (Spitfire III was cancelled as the Hurricane needed the Merlin XX to be competitive with the Germans while the Spitfire II was still competitive with the Merlin XII).

Thirdly, improve the development of cannons and seriously consider heavy machine gun weapon fits. If cannons can be an option earlier it's an option to increase the weaponload. Especially given the increased power of the Merlin engine.

Fourthly, As the number of spitfires improve, look at developing an early seafire.

Fiftly, if the Merlin is ahead of otl and more spitfires reduces Battle of Britain fears its likely that the Griffon development won't be halted during the worst of the battle of Britain. It should be possible to get Griffon Spitfires in service 12 months earlier than OTL. This is very valuable as the German fighter threat had seriously declined by the time Griffon Spitfires were in service. They acted more as armed reconnaissance planes than as fighters.

Finally get drop tanks as an option earlier. I understand that drop tanks can harm performance and the Spitfire was primarily an interceptor but it was also the highest performance plane available. Historically droptanks weren't used til the Spitfire V. I don't need mass use of spitfires in 1940 but merely for it to be an option. Even if the option only gets used to support the Dunkirk evacuation and nothing else.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

And the Hurricane was needed. Spitfires dancing around in The Marquess of Queensberry rules style and demanding satisfaction when sometimes you just need a brown ale bottle to the head and a kick in the goolies to get the job done.

I cannot prove the following ...

• FWIW (1) I suspect that 600 Hurricanes and 310 Spitfires were ordered in 1936 instead of 910 Spitfires because Supermarine didn't have the factory space due to spending the last decade-and-a-half building amphibians, flying boats and seaplanes by the handful while Hawker had been building aircraft like the Hart by the hundred.
  • That's partly why I suggested having Supermarine's parent company build Spitfires at it's factories instead of bombers and have the Hawker Siddeley factories build more bombers instead of Hurricanes.
  • IIRC some Wellingtons (and/or Whitleys) were ordered from Gloster but the contract(s) were transferred to Vickers (and/or Armstrong-Whitworth) so having Hawker Siddeley build more bombers instead of the Hurricane, Typhoon & Tempest is not as far fetched as it may appear.
• FWIW (2) I suspect that 910 Hurricanes would have been ordered from Hawker in 1936 if the aircraft's performance had been as good as the Spitfire's due to the Company having a bigger factory and therefore having a better chance of delivering the aircraft on time.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

If the following appears familiar, it should be, as I've written it in at least two other threads. The object is to accelerate the development of the Hurricane & Spitfire so the types entered service sooner and that the aircraft ordered to the contracts let in 1936 were delivered on time. The first 600 Hurricanes and 310 Spitfires were contracted to be delivered by 31.03.39 but the 600th Hurricane and 310th Spitfire weren't delivered until the Autumn of 1939 which in turn meant that the 601st Hawker built Hurricane and the 311st Supermarine built Spitfire would have been delivered in the Spring of 1939 instead of the Autumn of 1939. Therefore, several hundred extra Hurricanes and Spitfires at the outbreak of war.

POD 1st December 1934.

The Air Ministry orders two Hurricane prototypes from Hawker and two Spitfire prototypes from Supermarine.

The first Hurricane prototype (K5083-A) was powered by a RR Kestrel V engine and made its first flight in July 1935. K5083-B the second Hurricane prototype made its first flight on 6th November 1935. This was the OTL prototype and in common with OTL it was powered by a RR Merlin C engine. K5083-A underwent trials at the A&AEE in October 1935 and after they were completed it was sent back to the factory to have a Merlin fitted. However, the Air Ministry hadn't waited for the for the results of the trials because it ordered 35 in August 1935 which were deducted from the contract for 600 Hurricanes ordered in June 1936 IOTL.

The first Spitfire prototype (K5054-A) was powered by a RR Kestrel V engine made its first flight in October 1935. K5054-B the second Spitfire prototype made its first fight on 5th March 1936. This was the OTL prototype and in common with OTL it was powered by a RR Merlin C engine. K5054-A underwent trials at the A&AEE in January 1936 and after they were completed it was sent back to the factory to have a Merlin fitted. However, the Air Ministry hadn't waited for the results of the trials because it ordered 35 in August 1935 which were deducted from the contract for 310 Spitfires ordered in June 1936 IOTL.

IOTL the Air Ministry ordered 17 Supermarine flying boats in August 1935 and another 6 in May 1936. However, the second contract was cancelled to allow Supermarine to concentrate on building Spitfires.

ITTL the 35 Spitfires were ordered instead of the 17 Stranraers. The RAF still needed flying boats and the Air Ministry ordered 23 additional London flying boats from Saunders Roe in two contracts, that is 17 in August 1935 and 6 in May 1936. This increased the number of Londons built IOTL to 54 including the prototype.

The Hurricane and Spitfire weren't the only aircraft that had pairs for prototypes build in the first half of the 1930s. Two of the others were the Handley Page Hampden and Vickers Wellington. More about them later.

 

[tomo pauk]

I'm not sure how much you can expand production. The Spitfire was hard to build. That said, fixing production in the two historically factories to match what was promised should be a goal.
I believe the wing was the hardest part of the manufacture and almost cost a quarter of the cost of the whole Spitfire.

Axing what stands in the way is allowed.
I'll axe the Defiant, so BP makes Spitfires.
Axe the Lysander (make a simpler aircraft instead, like the Auster at Taylorcraft), so Westland is earlier in the groove with Spitfires.
Wing ribs were made by a smaller pieces, so called built-up ribs. Design the pressed ribs (take a look on P-36 or Bf 109 for inspiration), thus manufacturing hours and price should drop significantly.

Secondly the Merlin engine. Avoid the ramphead (walk down the wrong path) and speed up Merlin development. This could see each mark of Spitfire 50-100 horsepower ahead of historical. This should mean that (if cannons are available) the Spitfire II will look more like the Spitfire III.

We'd probably want better Merlins, and more of them. "More" of them can be addressed by 1000+ from the OTL Defiant production that is not undertaken (a drop in the bucket in 1944, but amazing quantity in 1939-41). 'Better' should indeed include not making the flop with the ramp-head design. Other improvements include attaching the better carb (pressure type; among other benefits, like better resistance to icing or functioning at negative G, it was worth 10 mph over the float-type) - that was in the cards well before ww2, alas it was not done back then. Or, introduction of direct fuel injection, for a ~10% better power and a better mileage.

Finally get drop tanks as an option earlier. I understand that drop tanks can harm performance and the Spitfire was primarily an interceptor but it was also the highest performance plane available. Historically droptanks weren't used til the Spitfire V. I don't need mass use of spitfires in 1940 but merely for it to be an option. Even if the option only gets used to support the Dunkirk evacuation and nothing else.

Drop tanks on Spitfires harmed performance only when still attached to the aircraft. Drop tanks on Spitfires from the No. 12 Group mean that these can take part in defending the hard-pressed No. 11 and 10 groups.
Drop-tank outfitted Spitfire can fight over Belgium, Netherlands and N. France, flying from Kent - BEF will be grateful.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

I'm not sure how much you can expand production. The Spitfire was hard to build. That said, fixing production in the two historical factories to match what was promised should be a goal.

FWIW it was three historical factories, not two because Weatland built Spitfires (and Seafires) IOTL. That's why I'm suggesting having them brought into the programme sooner by having the Company build more Spifires instead of the Lysander and Whirlwind. Seafires were also built by Cunliffe-Owen. Does anyone know if they could be brought into the programme sooner.

Is it true that the Wellesley, Wellington and Warwick were hard to build due to their geodetic airframes? Having the factories at Blackpool, Chester and Weybridge produce hard to build Spitfires be cancelled out by not producing hard to build Wellingtons and Warwicks?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Drop tanks on Spitfires harmed performance only when still attached to the aircraft. Drop tanks on Spitfires from the No. 12 Group mean that these can take part in defending the hard-pressed No. 11 and 10 groups.
Drop-tank outfitted Spitfire can fight over Belgium, Netherlands and N. France, flying from Kent - BEF will be grateful.

Drop-tanks on RAF fighters that early may give the Luftwaffe ideas which if implemented will have an adverse effect on the outcome of the Battle of Britain as the Luftwaffe will be reminded that they'd been using drop-tanks since the Spanish Civil War.

 

[tomo pauk]

Drop-tanks on RAF fighters that early may give the Luftwaffe ideas which if implemented will have an adverse effect on the outcome of the Battle of Britain as the Luftwaffe will be reminded that they'd been using drop-tanks since the Spanish Civil War.

There is no need to advertise the drop tank capability of the Spitfire.
A glut of the Spitfires will be there to forestall the increased LW capability shall that happen. There will be no RAF pilots flying anything but Spitfires (and better than per OTL) in the No.11 and 10 Groups anyway.

 

[naraic]

FWIW it was three historical factories, not two because Weatland built Spitfires (and Seafires) IOTL. That's why I'm suggesting having them brought into the programme sooner by having the Company build more Spifires instead of the Lysander and Whirlwind. Seafires were also built by Cunliffe-Owen. Does anyone know if they could be brought into the programme sooner.

Believe it or not I often count Westland built Spitfires with Southampton built spitfires.

They used and expanded the Southampton based subcontractor network and shipped parts up.

It it true that the Wellesley, Wellington and Warwick were hard to build due to their geodetic airframes? Having the factories at Blackpool, Chester and Weybridge produce hard to build Spitfires be cancelled out by not producing hard to build Wellingtons and Warwicks?

I believe that it certainly offered different challenges. You had to build the fuselage of the plane as a complete part.

I cannot prove the following ...

• FWIW (1) I suspect that 600 Hurricanes and 310 Spitfires were ordered in 1936 instead of 910 Spitfires because Supermarine didn't have the factory space due to spending the last decade-and-a-half building amphibians, flying boats and seaplanes by the handful while Hawker had been building aircraft like the Hart by the hundred.
  • That's partly why I suggested having Supermarine's parent company build Spitfires at it's factories instead of bombers and have the Hawker Siddeley factories build more bombers instead of Hurricanes.
  • IIRC some Wellingtons (and/or Whitleys) were ordered from Gloster but the contract(s) were transferred to Vickers (and/or Armstrong-Whitworth) so having Hawker Siddeley build more bombers instead of the Hurricane, Typhoon & Tempest is not as far fetched as it may appear.
• FWIW (2) I suspect that 910 Hurricanes would have been ordered from Hawker in 1936 if the aircraft's performance had been as good as the Spitfire's due to the Company having a bigger factory and therefore having a better chance of delivering the aircraft on time.

The air ministry at this time was very much into hedging its bets.

That said I do agree that Hawkers factory was an advantage over supermarine. The instead construction difficulties of the Spitfire wing was another disadvantage for the Spitfire. The air ministry almost wondered if anyone could build that at scale. Another was the cost. I can't find a scheme f contract cost for the Hurricane but I can loads of references to the Spitfire being expensive at the time (and it came in costing more than the contract price for the initial order).

 

[ArtosStark]

. Seafires were also built by Cunliffe-Owen. Does anyone know if they could be brought into the programme sooner.

Not a lot sooner I don’t think. Cunliff-Owen only came into being in 1937 with the express purpose of building a flying wing aircraft. That project was poorly timed as the expansion of the RAF and aircraft industry meant competition for everything from skilled workmen to machine tools was fierce. And Cunliff-Owen was the babe in the woods in this market. Thus the prototype was slow to build and had a number of workmanship issues when it arrived. Plus the arrival of the DC-3 hurt its prospects (it was pretty comparable to the DC-2). The outbreak of war ended whatever hope it might have had and left the factory that built it open for building parts for the Spitfires built by neighbouring Supermarine and repairing damaged aircraft.

Without the hope of building the flying wing aircraft the factory would never have been built, so it can’t really be brought in pre-war. And it probably needed the parts and repair work to build up the expertise to build complete aircraft. As a matter of fact it seems like the contracting of Seafires to Cunliff Owen as their first complete aircraft is a sign of the low priority that Seafires were given by the Air Ministry.

It it true that the Wellesley, Wellington and Warwick were hard to build due to their geodetic airframes? Having the factories at Blackpool, Chester and Weybridge produce hard to build Spitfires be cancelled out by not producing hard to build Wellingtons and Warwicks?

Vickers had been tooling up for geodesic structure from about 1932 to 1935. That tooling and expertise can probably not be easily transferred to elliptical stressed skin wings. I’m not sure it would be worth it to go back far enough to butterfly the entire line of aircraft.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

IOW, make the success story even a greater one
Required is a much greater number of them produced, to be even more capable and earlier, including in weapon-lifting capacity, improvement in different roles, new roles, new users etc.Reduce the manhour count required. Lower the drag, improve the horsepower. All on tech of the day, of course.
Axe what you don't find useful, or don't like, to boost the Spitfire footprint on the ww2 and beyond.

I'll start the ball rolling with the Spitfire III being adopted, thus making LW's (as well as Italian and Japanese) task after the late 1940 much harder.

Okay fine...if you insist

We have already addressed the production bottlenecks so that would have been my first POD or PODs

Next is looking at the Engine

No lost development (and a staggering amount of money) due to the fixation on the Ramp Head design

Fuel injection is not dismissed out of hand by the air ministry with the likes of Ricardo getting a bigger say in the direction etc - this would obviously be an advantage for many of the engines during this period

An Earlier development of the more advanced VP props - and an earlier development of the contra rotating propeller

All of the above should each gain a 10-15% increase in power over the OTL engine at any given date - so a 30-45% improvement and also likely an increase in range before we start adding fuel tanks/increased capacity.

More love to the Griffon earlier as well so this is in service earlier again with greater than OTL power at any given date.

Guns Guns Guns - adopt the HS404 earlier and sort out the weapons foibles earlier to allow a 4 gun Hispanio MK V equivalent earlier

As a stop gap introduce a 4 later 6 gun armed Spit with AN/M2 .50 cal firing explosive ammunition as soon as possible

lastly an earlier adoption of the Gyro Gunsight to the Ferranti MK II standard earlier than 1943 - this gun sight had a remarkable impact on pilots ability to make deflection shooting - and was in service with the USSAF and USN as the K-14 and K-18 respectively in 1944.

The adoption of the MK II had massive impact on the ability for a pilot to successfully hit an enemy aircraft - giving allied pilots a huge advantage over their German and Japanese opponents - Germany only managed to get a equivalent sight (the EZ 42) into production in the final months of WW2.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

First thing is to have Vickers run Castle Bromwich from the start.
Second simplify the wing, perhaps moving to the Spiteful's wing early on.
Third More Fuel

Pull their fingers out about getting the HS 404 into service.

This is ASB but Mitchell doesn't get cancer.

 

[AlanL]

Get the cannons working in time for the BoB

Possible to get the Mk VIII ready in time to counter the Fokker Focke Wulf Scourge without the need for the Mk IX stopgap?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

The air ministry at this time was very much into hedging its bets.

IMHO that was a sensible idea, especially when the policy of ordering aircraft "off the drawing board" was introduced.