French India and longterm effects thereof

[EvolvedSaurian]

Suppose that during the Seven Years' War, Robert Clive was not the commander of the EIC forces, for whatever reason. Could be suicide, could be somebody else was put in charge, could be he didn't want to command, or perhaps he succumbs to some Indian disease or dies in a skirmish. Regardless, the British in India are left without his leadership and the French Compagne des Indes under Dupleix becomes the paramount European power in India, with Bengal, Circars, Hyderabad and Mysore within its sphere, in addition to its possesions on the Coramandel and Malabar Coasts, Bombay ceded from the EIC and Madras and Calcutta reduced to demilitarized trading posts (as happened OTL to Pondichery and Chandernagore). Eventually the Mughal Emperor grants an imperial farman (license or monopoly, empowered the bearer to assume tax farming duties among other things), to the French instead of the British.

So, with French trade with India greatly expanded, a larger merchant marine would be required, and to protect it, a larger, better funded, trained and disciplined, French Navy. With the expanded influence of the merchant and sailor classes, and those who depend on them, shipwrights and the like, as well as some butterflies to Bourbon absolutism, might we see a French constitutional democracy, of an albeit limited franchise?

On the other hand, Britain will be rather poorer, deprived of its Indian trade. Assuming that the war goes largely as OTL in Europe and North America, Britain will desire to tighten its hold on the American colonies, with new taxes and suchlike. Again, assuming that the colonies, without fear of French attacks, rebel, a poorer Britain would be harder pressed to keep them/us in line, especially with French funding, fleets and advisors (the first two being greatly increased in quantity). Taxes are increase in Britain (and Ireland) and the Revolution spreads to the Home Islands, with George III and his family, court, sympathisers and segments of the army fleeing to Hanover.

So, plausible? Thoughts, ideas, comments, questions, hushed remarks questioning my parentage?

 

[Keenir]

and the French Compagne des Indes under Dupleix becomes the paramount European power in India, with Bengal, Circars, Hyderabad and Mysore within its sphere, in addition to its possesions on the Coramandel and Malabar Coasts,

So, plausible? Thoughts, ideas, comments, questions, hushed remarks questioning my parentage?

regretably, I have only three questions:

1. going through through French instead of English, what are some of the names of foods that gained popularity in OTL?
2. I think I heard somewhere (Eating India?), that when most of the Western World thinks "Indian food", we're thinking of Bengali food...which Indian region's cuisine would replace it in the international mind of this ATL?
3. had the French ever used anything like the Doctrine of Lapse? would they develop one with India under their belt?

 

[W.W.A.F.T.]

I say it sounds fun!

 

[bobbis14]

1. had the French ever used anything like the Doctrine of Lapse? would they develop one with India under their belt?

I think once they realised how rich a 'French Raj' would make them they'd be insane not too

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

regretably, I have only three questions:

1. going through through French instead of English, what are some of the names of foods that gained popularity in OTL?
2. I think I heard somewhere (Eating India?), that when most of the Western World thinks "Indian food", we're thinking of Bengali food...which Indian region's cuisine would replace it in the international mind of this ATL?
3. had the French ever used anything like the Doctrine of Lapse? would they develop one with India under their belt?

1. Unfortunately, my knowledge of French is quite limited. I was pretty much forced into Spanish, because the school I started languages at only had the one option.
2. It'll likely be the same in this ATL, seeing as they control about the same areas as the British did at this point. There might be some more influences from the Deccan, particularly the Tamil areas.
3. Not as far as I know, but then I'm not exactly an expert on French colonial history. I do know that certain colonies, such as Tunisia, Morocco and bits of Indochina, kept native rulers as French protectorates, but I can't recall them ever revoking a rulers' rights, and this was under the Republic.

I say it sounds fun!

I thought the same.

I think once they realised how rich a 'French Raj' would make them they'd be insane not too

Britain got plenty rich after it discontinued the DoL after the Sepoy Rebellion. Besides which, only a couple of major states were Lapsed, Awadh and Nagpur, I think.

Also, th Hindustani name of the arrangement would likely be something like Farangi Raj, analogous to OTL's Angrezi Raj. Just a possibly interesting sidenote.

 

[Ofaloaf]

Also, th Hindustani name of the arrangement would likely be something like Farangi Raj, analogous to OTL's Angrezi Raj. Just a possibly interesting sidenote.

How close is the pronunciation of "Farangi" to "Ferengi"? I'm certain there's the possibility of some good jokes there if you work at it.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

How close is the pronunciation of "Farangi" to "Ferengi"? I'm certain there's the possibility of some good jokes there if you work at it.

Well, pronunciation is pretty optional, and likely to be quite diverse as well, so it could be quite close. I just spelled it that way to avoid Star Trek references.

Although, Farangi started out as meaning Frank, it eventually came to be used for any western Europeans, so I'm not actually sure about that... Hmm... Anybody know for sure how you say something is French in Hindi-Urdu?

 

[Flocculencio]

Well, pronunciation is pretty optional, and likely to be quite diverse as well, so it could be quite close. I just spelled it that way to avoid Star Trek references.

Although, Farangi started out as meaning Frank, it eventually came to be used for any western Europeans, so I'm not actually sure about that... Hmm... Anybody know for sure how you say something is French in Hindi-Urdu?

Not sure about that but in Malayalam it's pretty close to 'Ferengi'. Admittedly Malayalam did get a few Arabic loan words through trading contact and such but I'm sure Hindi-Urdu would be even more Arabic influenced, through Persian.

Culturally French India will be interesting- unlike the British, the French were a lot more amenable to the creation of brown Frenchmen, so to speak- with the Brits this only worked if you were already an upper class Indian. It weas only in the early 20th C that an English speaking middle class really began to grow. Under the French you might see the earlier development of a Westernised middle class- and one which is much more Westernised than OTLs English speaking middle classes which tended to adopt the language and the politics but not much else. With the French promotion of cultural assimilation, becoming French in all but colour might well be a viable path for social advancement. Intermarriage would also be a major factor here. That's what happened in Pondicherry.

 

[Flocculencio]

[*]I think I heard somewhere (Eating India?), that when most of the Western World thinks "Indian food", we're thinking of Bengali food...which Indian region's cuisine would replace it in the international mind of this ATL?

Indian food in the West is generally either Bengali or a variation of Imperial Mughal/Punjabi cuisine.

It depends on where the centre of gravity of French India is. You might well see Southern Indian food gain more prominence- more use of coconut milk instead of dairy, a tendency towards more spice and less prominence of meat. Dosais with masala might be a popular Indian fast food option, you'd see pratas instead of naans as the major Indian bread and banana leaf restaurants might be popular instead of the western style curry house.

Dosa- a sort of crepe made with fermented rice and lentil flour or with semolina. Masala is a potato/pea/onion spice filling. This is a rava dosa (i.e. made with semolina instead of rice flour)

This is prata- now famous as a Singaporean dish but which originated in Kerala. It's different from the North Indian paratha which might be more familiar in the West. Pictured are an egg prata and a plain prata. There are many variations in Singapore both sweet and savoury e.g. with mushrooms, cheese, chilli, masala, chocolate syrup, honey, banana etc. These might actually be quite a hit in the West as fast food.

A banana leaf restaurant is where you eat rice off a banana leaf along with various curried dishes both vegetarian and non veg. For those of you familiar with Indonesian cuisine it's sort of like a rijstafel

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Not sure about that but in Malayalam it's pretty close to 'Ferengi'. Admittedly Malayalam did get a few Arabic loan words through trading contact and such but I'm sure Hindi-Urdu would be even more Arabic influenced, through Persian.

Ah, well, good to be sure of that, many thanks.

Culturally French India will be interesting- unlike the British, the French were a lot more amenable to the creation of brown Frenchmen, so to speak- with the Brits this only worked if you were already an upper class Indian. It weas only in the early 20th C that an English speaking middle class really began to grow. Under the French you might see the earlier development of a Westernised middle class- and one which is much more Westernised than OTLs English speaking middle classes which tended to adopt the language and the politics but not much else. With the French promotion of cultural assimilation, becoming French in all but colour might well be a viable path for social advancement. Intermarriage would also be a major factor here. That's what happened in Pondicherry.

As I understand it, British attitudes towards natives hardened as a result of the Mutiny. It's possible that an equivalent would do the same or similiar to French attitudes, and I don't see any reason why an analogue to the Rebellion wouldn't happen in this ATL, unless the French were much more sensitive to religious issues from the get go and discourage proselytization. Honestly, I find it unlikely, especially as/if France becomes the hegemon of South Asia, and becomes more secure(and arrogant) in its' power.

Intermarriage is quite an interesting possibility though, if French officials, administrators and soldiers marry Indian women, I could see native cultures being far more respected, at least by local officals. The company higher ups would have a different point of view, which could make for some interesting times, with various factions competing for influence. I assume these Eurasians were raised as good Catholics?

 

[manofsteelwool]

Have you read Tony Jones' Clive-Less World?

 

[The Sandman]

If the French get all of the BEIC territory out of the Seven Years War, what are the British going to want to keep in return? I would expect that Cuba would be a minimum demand for the British to not simply keep the war, and the blockade of France, going until India at least went back to status quo ante bellum.

 

[Faeelin]

Indian food in the West is generally either Bengali or a variation of Imperial Mughal/Punjabi cuisine.

God, I miss Kari Mee.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

France will be a serious mega-power with India. That would completely change the course of history on the whole planet in a major way. French paramountcy would eclipse what Britain accomplished.

Back then France's population was three times Britain's. You'd have by far the greatest continental power with by far the greatest empire. France has none of the geographic problems Germany has vis a vis Britain and seapower.

 

[Flocculencio]

God, I miss Kari Mee.

I'm not familiar with Kari Mee- Indian-Chinese cuisine?

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

If the French get all of the BEIC territory out of the Seven Years War, what are the British going to want to keep in return? I would expect that Cuba would be a minimum demand for the British to not simply keep the war, and the blockade of France, going until India at least went back to status quo ante bellum.

Likely some combination of Cuba, Florida, Louisiana and possibly some Caribbean islands, excluding, of course, St. Domingue. It really depends on how much the Brits value their influence in India against various French and Spanish American possessions.

France will be a serious mega-power with India. That would completely change the course of history on the whole planet in a major way. French paramountcy would eclipse what Britain accomplished.

Back then France's population was three times Britain's. You'd have by far the greatest continental power with by far the greatest empire. France has none of the geographic problems Germany has vis a vis Britain and seapower.

Larger population could lead to a larger navy than Britain's at its peak, even accounting for the necessity of a powerful army in Europe. It might also mean somewhat less of a dependence on sepoys, but I'm not entirely sure what the effects of that might be. Possibly less opportunities for the aspiring Indian soldier?
______________

Also, I think it's quite possible that the French might wish to seize the Cape from the VOC, for the same purposes that the Dutch founded Kaapstad in the first place, as a watering hole on the way to the East.

 

[Flocculencio]

As I understand it, British attitudes towards natives hardened as a result of the Mutiny. It's possible that an equivalent would do the same or similiar to French attitudes, and I don't see any reason why an analogue to the Rebellion wouldn't happen in this ATL, unless the French were much more sensitive to religious issues from the get go and discourage proselytization. Honestly, I find it unlikely, especially as/if France becomes the hegemon of South Asia, and becomes more secure(and arrogant) in its' power.

Still, I don't think the French would have been quite as insensitive- even as hegemons the fact that through education it will be possible for Indians to be seen as equals will moderate a lot of tensions. You might even see Francophone native officers for native regiments. The fact that the French were alright with intermarriage means that you could well have a large intermediate class to buffer attitudes, as you say below:

Intermarriage is quite an interesting possibility though, if French officials, administrators and soldiers marry Indian women, I could see native cultures being far more respected, at least by local officals. The company higher ups would have a different point of view, which could make for some interesting times, with various factions competing for influence. I assume these Eurasians were raised as good Catholics?

One assumes that the Eurasians would be raised Catholic, yes. This means that after a generation you have a homegrown French-speaking Eurasian middle class, augmented with Francophone Indians.

Interesting point- if there's still a *Revolution how does that go down in India? Could we see this Francophone class going Republican as well?

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Have you read Tony Jones' Clive-Less World?

Yes, indeed I have skimmed through it a couple of times. It is likely that I was subconsciously influenced by it during my long without a computer period.

Still, I don't think the French would have been quite as insensitive- even as hegemons the fact that through education it will be possible for Indians to be seen as equals will moderate a lot of tensions. You might even see Francophone native officers for native regiments. The fact that the French were alright with intermarriage means that you could well have a large intermediate class to buffer attitudes, as you say below:



One assumes that the Eurasians would be raised Catholic, yes. This means that after a generation you have a homegrown French-speaking Eurasian middle class, augmented with Francophone Indians.

So there'd be quite a number of Indians/Eurasians interested in preserving the status quo of French rule, in addition to the soldiers and their dependents.

Interesting point- if there's still a *Revolution how does that go down in India? Could we see this Francophone class going Republican as well?

Hm, well, I figured a larger and more influential merchant class would encourage the Bourbons towards a more constitutional monarchy style set up. The Estates-General could be reformed into an actual law-making body, without that pesky bloc voting. Perhaps merge the nobility and clergy into the First Estate, make the Second Estate a middle class domain, for those with wealth, but not titles or landed estates. The third estate will remain for the commoners, peasants and urban poor. Mind you, this would all happen gradually, but it would likely defuse most of the reasons for the Revolution in the first place.

Hypothetically though, you might see a split between those who are happy with the status quo and those who would push for full equality.

 

[mojojojo]

What would the effects on Hinduism be?

 

[Faeelin]

I'm not familiar with Kari Mee- Indian-Chinese cuisine?

. It's my favorite food at Malaysian restaurants, so I'm dissapointed you're not familiar with it. I can only assume it's a psuedo-American invention.

I'm not sure that there would be that much Francification, though. Sure, there were efforts to create a Francified elite, but look at how this sort of died out in the 20th century, as the locals' support for French culture went beyond Voltaire towards wondering when they were going to get the Rights of Man.