Your own Spitfire wank

[NOMISYRRUC]

FWIW, I don't think that a bomber-less RAF is that a great thing. There is a lot of dead wood to trim - Defiants, Bopthas, best part of the Battles and Gladiators, half of the Hurricanes' production, Lysander*, unfortunately even the Whirlwind** - before we look at how to turn Wellingtons, Whitleys or Hampdens into Spitfires. That is even before we look at avoiding the CB becoming a mess in the 1st place.

* make something that uses 200-350 HP engines instead
** have Westland make Spitfires from 1939 instead, since Whirly contributed next to nothing in the BoB, and for 1941 it was not worth it

FWIW have Westland make Lysanders from 1938 too because IMHO they weren't worth it either.

Correction, that should have been.

FWIW have Westland make Spitfires instead of Lysanders from 1938 too because IMHO they (the Lysanders) weren't worth it either.​

 

[tomo pauk]

FWIW have Westland make Lysanders from 1938 too because IMHO they weren't worth it either.

Make them because they weren't worth it?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

This is not true - many fighter command airfields in 1940 were grass strips as multiple aircraft could take off together (and not fixed in a certain direction) and IIRC grass was preferred for both Hurricane and Spitfire

In support of the above we've all seen the Battle of Britain film and IIRC the Spitfires frequently took off from & landed on grass runways including the scene where they take-off while the airfield was being bombed. Unfortunately, the best example that I could find on the internet was this one.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Make them because they weren't worth it?

Make Spitfires because the Lysanders weren't worth it. I'll correct the typo.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

The Spitfire in Finnish Service​

From Post 133.

Finland has asked for quotes by May 1939 but the book didn't have any quantities.

According to Pages 92 & 93 of Green & Fricker's "The Air Forces of the World".

• The only foreign purchase that had been completed before the Soviet Union attacked were the 35 Fiat G.50 fighters, but they were detained en route by Germany and weren't delivered until after the Winter War was over.
• The British Government supplied 12 Hurricanes, 30 Gladiators, 25 Gauntlets, some Lysanders and 24 Blenheim IV from RAF stocks.
  • AFAIK 3 Lysanders were supplied.
• France supplied 30 M.S.406C plus a few Caudron C.714m the latter being found unsuitable for Finnish conditions.
• 44 Brewster 239 fighters (which were ordered before the Winter War started) arrived April 1940.
• They were augmented by 44 Curtiss Hawk 75A-2 & A-3 captured by the Germans in France & Norway and sold to Finland.

My wank is to have more Spitfires built instead of all the Hurricanes, all the Henleys (which were built by Gloster), all the Lysanders and as many Gladiators as possible.

Therefore, ITTL.

• The Finnish Government ordered 80 Spitfires instead of the 35 Fiat G.50s & 44 Buffaloes and the 35 ordered instead of the G.35s were delivered before the Winter War began and the other 45 aircraft were delivered while the war was in progress.
• The British Government, in addition, supplied 45 Spitfires, 25 Gauntlets and 24 Twin Battles from RAF stocks.
• The British Government could have provided more Spitfires instead of the Moraine-Sauliners and Coudrons, but the French Government wanted to be seen to be helping Finland too.
• Germany sold 44 Spitfires that it had captured in France & Norway to Finland. Except the invasion of Norway fails because the Norwegian Government ordered Spitfires instead of Hawks and the invasion of France might fail because the French Government bought some Spitfires instead of Hawks and the Belgian Government bought Spitfires instead of its OTL fighters.

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

Therefore, ITTL.

• The Finnish Government ordered 80 Spitfires instead of the 35 Fiat G.50s & 44 Buffaloes and the 35 ordered instead of the G.35s were delivered before the Winter War began and the other 45 aircraft were delivered while the war was in progress.
• The British Government, in addition, supplied 45 Spitfires, 25 Gauntlets and 24 Twin Battles from RAF stocks.
• The British Government could have provided more Spitfires instead of the Moraine-Sauliners and Coudrons, but the French Government wanted to be seen to be helping Finland too.
• Germany sold 44 Spitfires that it had captured in France & Norway to Finland. Except the invasion of Norway fails because the Norwegian Government ordered Spitfires instead of Hawks and the invasion of France might fail because the French Government bought some Spitfires instead of Hawks and the Belgian Government bought Spitfires instead of its OTL fighters.

I guess this is how the Soviets get their hands on a Spitfire and attempt to copy it.

Would the Spitfire really changed the outcome of the Norwegian campaign? I find it highly unlikely, more so that France won't fall because they have Spitfires, OTL they kept a good deal of their airforce grounded and a few dozen Spitfires won't make a difference to the deficiencies found at higher levels in the French government and army.

 

[Bougnas]

I should try to check how costly the Spit was compared to the Hawk when accounting for the state of reserve currencies. Spit was quite expensive but so were US fighters.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

The Spitfire in Norwegian Service​

From Post 133.

Norway had asked for quotes by May 1939 but the source doesn't say how many aircraft they wanted to buy.

According to Page 211 of Green & Fricker's "The Air Forces of the World".

• 12 Gladiators were ordered in 1937 and delivered in 1938.
• Increasing tensions in Europe resulted in an attempt to modernise and strengthen the flying services. The purchases that were relevant to this thread were 36 Curtiss Hawk 75A-4 fighters, 36 Douglas DB-8A-5 attack monoplanes and 4 Caprioni Ca.310 & 12 Caprioni Ca.312 light bombers.
• Of the above only 4 Ca.310 had entered service by 09.04.40 and about 20 Hawk 75s were still in their delivery crates.
• "The seven Gladiators of the fighter squadron based at Fornebu fought well. They destroyed four German aircraft and damaged several more for the loss of one of their number, but the remainder had to make forced landings as the German forces had occupied Fornebu and no emergency landing fields had been prepared."

According to the Putnams book on Gloster aircraft

The Gladiators were purchased in 2 batches of 6 aircraft. The first 6 were Mk I aircraft ordered in June 1937 and delivered between September & October 1937. They were delivered as Mk I aircraft but were later rebuilt to Mk II standard. They second 6 were Mk II aircraft taken from the final RAF contract (for 300 Gladiators) that were delivered between March 1939 and April 1940). At one point the book says that they were ordered on 15.07.38 and at another that they were ordered in 1939. The book doesn't say when they were delivered.

My wank is to have more Spitfires built instead of all the Hurricanes, all the Henleys (which were built by Gloster), all the Lysanders and as many Gladiators as possible. I think there's no problem in having Norway receive 6 Spitfires built by Gloster ITTL instead of the last 6 Gladiators. It's harder to sell Norway another 6 Gloster built Spitfires in place of the first 6 Gladiators. However, it could be done if the Norwegian Government was prepared to wait for them to be delivered a year later than the first 6 Gladiators, i.e. September to October 1938 instead of September to October 1937.

Therefore, the TTL version of Green & Fricker would say.

• 12 Spitfires were ordered in 1937 and delivered in 1938.
• Increasing tensions in Europe resulted in an attempt to modernise and strengthen the flying services. The purchases that were relevant to this thread were 36 Supermarine Spitfires, 36 Douglas DB-8A-5 attack monoplanes and 16 Fairey Twin Battles. The Norwegian Government bought Spitfires instead of Hawks because they already had the 12 Spitfires purchased instead of the Gladiator and because the British Government promised earlier delivery dates which they met by taking Spitfires from RAF stocks.
• Of the above only the 36 Douglas light bombers remained to be delivered on 09.04.40.
• "The twenty-one Spitfires of the three fighter squadrons based at Fornebu fought well. They destroyed twenty-four German aircraft and damaged many more for the loss of three of their number."

That prevented German airborne forces from taking Fornebu, which couldn't go on to take Oslo. That in turn led to Germany's invasion of Norway failing completely, because the German Army couldn't advance from Oslo and relieve the troops landed by sea & air at Kristiansand, Stavanger, Bergen, Trondheim and Narvik (which were forced to surrender) due to German forces failing to capture Oslo in the first place.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

I should try to check how costly the Spit was compared to the Hawk when accounting for the state of reserve currencies. Spit was quite expensive but so were US fighters.

How would I do that? I'm not being sarcastic, I simply don't know where I could find that information.

FWIW the aircraft supplied instead of the Hurricanes, Gladiators & Lysanders would have been gifts because the aircraft the British & French Governments supplied IOTL were gifts. It was in the British Government's interest to bolster the armed forces of the nations threatened by Nazi Germany & Soviet Russia so it might well have subsidised the sale of the Spitfires sold to Finland instead of the Hawks & Buffaloes it bought IOTL.

 

[The Wooksta!]

Possibly. It covers all those that wanted them and how many, plus those that did get them. Been a while since I’ve looked at it and I don’t have it to hand.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

As I want Gloster to build Spitfires instead of the Hurricane, Henley and as many Gladiators as possible, would it follow that the Firm would also build Spitfires instead of re-tooling to build Typhoons & Tempests?

 

[Roderick Hutchinson]

From the get go the Spitfire has these as standard.
1, a fuel injected turbo charged Rolls Royce Merlin.
2, four 20mm cannon
3, engine has glycol/water emergency boost that pushes the Spitfire to over 400 mph in dogfight mode
Then this plays out.
1, the Spitfire is built throughout the British Empire such as South Africa, Australia and Canada.
2, the USA builds the Spitfire under license and part of lend lease.
3, the Soviets build the Spitfire under license and part of a lend lease scheme.
I estimate as a rough guess that overall over 200,000 Spitfires are built.

 

[Bougnas]

How would I do that? I'm not being sarcastic, I simply don't know where I could find that information.

FWIW the aircraft supplied instead of the Hurricanes, Gladiators & Lysanders would have been gifts because the aircraft the British & French Governments supplied IOTL were gifts. It was in the British Government's interest to bolster the armed forces of the nations threatened by Nazi Germany & Soviet Russia so it might well have subsidised the sale of the Spitfires sold to Finland instead of the Hawks & Buffaloes it bought IOTL.

I'm sure the French forums will have that I think. Will tell you if I find anything

 

[DrakonFin]

FWIW the aircraft supplied instead of the Hurricanes, Gladiators & Lysanders would have been gifts because the aircraft the British & French Governments supplied IOTL were gifts. It was in the British Government's interest to bolster the armed forces of the nations threatened by Nazi Germany & Soviet Russia so it might well have subsidised the sale of the Spitfires sold to Finland instead of the Hawks & Buffaloes it bought IOTL.

If the Finnish Air Force had Mk I. Spitfires in signicant numbers, you could also see a Frankenstein version of them in the Continuation War: up-engined with Soviet war booty engines like the "Mörkö-Morane" was IOTL, or maybe German-built engines.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

If the Finnish Air Force had Mk I. Spitfires in significant numbers, you could also see a Frankenstein version of them in the Continuation War: up-engined with Soviet war booty engines like the "Mörkö-Morane" was IOTL, or maybe German-built engines.

FWIW about 1,300 Spitfires were sent to Russia IOTL IIRC and so were 2,952 Hurricanes, which all other things being equal means about 4,300 Spitfires were sent to Russia ITTL. Then there are the Spitfires supplied to Belgium, Romania & Yugoslavia instead of Gladiators & Hurricanes and the Spitfires built under licence by Belgium & Yugoslavia instead of the Hurricane. Therefore, there may be a lot of Russian war booty for the Germans to pass onto the Finns.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

I guess this is how the Soviets get their hands on a Spitfire and attempt to copy it.

Would the Spitfire really changed the outcome of the Norwegian campaign? I find it highly unlikely, more so that France won't fall because they have Spitfires, OTL they kept a good deal of their airforce grounded and a few dozen Spitfires won't make a difference to the deficiencies found at higher levels in the French government and army.

More RAF spitfires would help if they were surplus to home defence requirements. But really more RAF Hurricanes would have been good enough and more expendable, leaving an all- or nearly all- spitfire force for the Battle of Britain.

Edit. Better French- owned aircraft that aren't used just gives the Germans more and better aircraft to destroy on the ground or capture.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

The Mother of All Spitfire Wanks
The Background​

I started a "RAF 1919-39 with no Geddes Axe" thread on Secret Projects exactly four months ago. So far I've only written two posts for it because of real life and contributing to other threads here and there.

The idea is that the British Government doubles its spending on all forms of aviation between 1st April 1922 and 31st March 1936. All forms of aviation include civil aviation as well as the RAF proper and FAA. So this means an RAF that's double the size of OTL by 31.03.34 when limited rearmament began IOTL and is also twice the size of OTL at 31.03.36 when full-scale rearmament began.

It also means that behind it were doubled Government research departments like the RAE and the aviation industry was twice as large. There were was the same number of firms as OTL, but each firm had:

• Twice the factory space.
• Double the number of factory workers.
• Been using larger scale production methods than IOTL due to building twice as many aircraft since 01.04.22.
• Been able to maintain design departments that were twice as large as IOTL, so twice as many designers, engineers, draughtsmen, more & better wind tunnels, etc.
• Been able to do twice the amount of private research since 01.04.22.

Design​

The Air Ministry had been ordering double the number of prototypes since 01.04.22. Therefore, in the case of Supermarine it would have built 2 Type 224 Spitfire prototypes instead of one and they might have been built to a more advanced design than IOTL. The firm would also have been able to put more resources into the design of the Type 300 Spitfire so it "gets the drawings completed sooner", can start production of the prototypes sooner, which in turn would be completed sooner, so the development flying could consume sooner (because it makes its first flight sooner) which is further accelerated by building two prototypes instead of one. The end result is that Supermarine was ready to start manufacturing production aircraft sooner. If the Merlin engine isn't ready sooner the prototypes could be fitted with another suitable engine until it was. Messerschmitt did it with the Bf109 and I suggested that it be done with the Hurricane & Spitfire prototype in this thread and others.

Production​

IOTL the following aircraft were ordered in 1936 as part of Expansion Scheme F:

• 600 Hurricanes from Hawker;
• 389 Hotspurs from Avro. However, the contract was cancelled in 1937 and Defiants were ordered from Boulton-Paul to be built in their place;
• 400 Henleys from Gloster as armament trainers, but the contract was reduced to 200.
• 310 Spitfires from Supermarine.
• 168 Walruses from Supermarine.
• 144 Lysanders from Westland against a requirement for 186.
• Total 2,011 ordered against a requirement for 2,053 aircraft.

ITTL Scheme F was for the same number of aircraft.

I'd usually have 600 Hurricanes still ordered from Hawker, 389 Hurricanes of Spitfires ordered from Boulton-Paul in 1937, 400 Hurricanes ordered from Gloster, 310 Spitfires still ordered from Supermarine, 168 Walruses from Saunders Roe (so Supermarine could concentrate on building Spitfires) and 144 Hurricanes or Spitfires ordered from Westland.

However, as this is a "wank the Spitfire" thread 1,843 Spitfires were ordered from 5 firms (Boulton-Paul, Gloster, Hawker, Supermarine & Westland) ITTL against a requirement for 1,885 and 168 Walruses would still be ordered from Saunders Roe.

Although its the same number of aircraft the six factories had double the building capacity at 31.03.36 so once they had completed the aircraft built to Scheme C they'd be able to deliver their Scheme F aircraft at double the OTL rate, which means the last aircraft would have been delivered sooner and they'd have begun work on the follow up contracts sooner.

The situation at 03.09.39

This is the situation IOTL (according to the Putnams RAF aircraft & British naval aircraft books) on 03.09.39
if the OTL types were built in the numbers that I think could have been built.

Note that the reason why its 270 Spitfires and 400 Hurricanes despite twice as many Hurricanes being ordered in 1936 is in part because all the Hurricanes exported to 03.09.39 were taken from the first RAF Hurricane contract. However, the numbers might not have been so large in OTL x 2 because some of the extra production may have been exported.

This is the situation at 03.09.39 ITTL if more Spitfires had been ordered instead of the Henley, Hurricane and Lysander.

Notes

• In common with OTL x 2 the TTL x 2 numbers may not have been that large because some of the extra production may have been exported.
• OTOH the number of Spitfires built by Supermarine would have been more than 540 because production of the Walrus was transferred from Supermarine to Saunders Roe in 1936 instead of 1940.
  • Supermarine built a total of 241 Walruses for the RAF, FAA & Export to contracts let from July 1936 IOTL.
  • The 168 ordered under Scheme F were delivered between June 1937 and September 1939.
  • The 65 ordered to follow up contracts and for export were delivered between October 1939 and August 1940.
  • The 8 ordered by Argentina & Turkey were built 1938-39.
  • Does that mean Supermarine could have delivered another 352 Spitfires from June 1937 to September 1939 in place of the 168 Walruses to the July 1936 contract and the 8 Walruses built to export contracts?
  • Does that mean Supermarine could have delivered another 130 Spitfires from October 1939 to August 1940?
• The number of Gladiators & Sea Gladiators would have been smaller because production of those types were terminated ASAP ITTL in favour of Spitfires.
  • According to Putnams and Air Britain's RAF aircraft books a grand total of 746 production Gladiators were built for the RAF, RN & export.
    • 225 Gladiator Mk I were ordered for the RAF.
      • 209 were ordered in 1935 as part of Expansion Scheme C.
      • 22 were cancelled. I can't prove it, but I think they were the 22 Gladiators built for Belgium.
      • 16 replacement aircraft were ordered.
      • Thus 203 Mk I were built for the RAF and they were delivered between February 1937 and February 1938.
    • 143 Gladiators (125 Mk I & 18 Mk II) were built to export contracts.
    • 378 Gladiator Mk II were ordered in 1937 & 1938 and were delivered from September 1938 to April 1940.
      • 21 were diverted to export contracts. That is the second 6 of the 12 aircraft sold to Norway and 15 sold to Portugal.
      • 98 were completed as Sea Gladiators & were delivered from December 1938 and according to the Putnams books the FAA had 54 on charge at 03.09.39.
      • 259 Gladiator Mk II aircraft delivered to the RAF.
    • Thus 560 of the 603 aircraft ordered to British contracts (225 Mk I & 378 Mk II) were delivered to the RAF & RN and 43 were exported (22 Belgium, 6 Norway & 15 Portugal).
      • In OTL x 2 that works out as 1,492 Gladiators.
        • 1,120 out of 1,206 aircraft ordered to British contracts (450 Mk I & 756 Mk II) were delivered to the RAF & RN and 86 Gladiators (44 Mk I and 42 Mk II) were diverted to export contracts.
        • 286 Gladiators (250 Mk I and 36 Mk II) were built to export contracts.
      • In TTL x 2 that works out as 1,492 aircraft still built, but.
        • 450 Gladiator Mk I built to British contracts of which 406 were delivered to the RAF & 44 were diverted to export contracts.
        • 756 Spitfires built to British contracts instead of the Gladiator Mk IIs of which the RAF received 518, the RN received 196 and 42 were diverted to export contracts.
        • 286 aircraft built to export contracts, most of which were built as Gladiators and the rest as Spitfires.
  • According to Bowyer in "Aircraft for the Few".
    • 210 Gladiator Mk I were delivered to the RAF.
      • 38 were taken off charge by 03.09.39.
      • Leaving 172 at 03.09.39.
    • 252 Gladiator Mk II were acquired by the RAF, 224 were delivered by 03.09.39 and none had been taken off charge.
      • Thus.
    • 462 Gladiators were built for the RAF (210 Mk I and 252 Mk II).
      • 38 Mk I had been taken off charge by 03.09.39 and 28 Mk II remained to be delivered.
      • That meant 396 Gladiators (172 Mk I & 224 Mk II) were on charge.
      • Except that my total on charge at 03.09.39 from the Putnams books is 374 (including 54 Sea Gladiators) a discrepancy of 22 aircraft.
    • IOTL x 2
      • 792 on charge at 03.09.39 (344 Mk I and 448 Mk II) against 748 (including 108 Sea Gladiators) from my other sources, which is 44 aircraft too many.
      • 924 built for the RAF (420 Mk I and 504 Mk II against 1,120 (including 196 Sea Gladiators) from my other sources, a discrepancy of 196 aircraft.
      • The discrepancy of 196 aircraft happens to match the 196 Sea Gladiators built IOTL x 2.
    • ITTL x 2
      • 344 Gladiator Mk I on charge at 03.09.39 out of 420 delivered February 1937 to February 1938 against the 406 that my other sources say were built for the RAF, which is 14 too many.
      • 448 Spitfires on charge at 03.09.39 out the 504 delivered from September 1938 to April 1940 against the 714 Spitfires (including 196 Seafires) that my other sources say were built for the RAF & RN, which is 210 too few.
      • The net difference is 196 aircraft which happens to be the number of Seafires built instead of Sea Gladiators ITTL x 2.
• Spitfires built by Boulton Paul.
  • IOTL
    • 389 Hotspurs were ordered from Avro in June 1936 for delivery by 31.03.39 and cancelled in 1937
    • The Defiant was substituted in its place and the first production contract (for 87 aircraft) was let on 28.04.37, the second contract for (for 202 aircraft) was let in February 1938 and the third contract (for 161 aircraft) was let in May 1938. That made a total of 450 production aircraft ordered before the outbreak of World War II.
    • The first of 2 Defiant prototypes (both ordered on 04.12.35) made its first flight on 11.08.37.
    • The first production aircraft wasn't delivered until August 1939.
      • The 87 aircraft ordered to the first contract were delivered by May 1940.
      • The 202 aircraft ordered to the second contract were delivered between June and October 1940.
      • The 161 aircraft ordered to the third contract were delivered between November 1940 and February 1941.
  • ITTL we can do a lot better than that.
    • 389 Spitfires were ordered from Boulton Paul in June 1936 for delivery by 31.03.39
    • So Boulton-Paul had a year's head start over OTL.
    • The Spitfire was 18 months ahead of the Defiant IOTL having made its first flight on 05.03.36.
    • It's development was probably even further ahead of the Defiant ITTL due to 2 prototypes being built ITTL and the first flight might have been sooner.
    • Deliveries of Supermarine built Spitfires began in June 1938 IOTL, but ITTL they began (at the latest) in December 1937 partially because of the above and also because that's when deliveries of the Spitfires built by Hawker instead of the Hurricane would begin.
    • At the latest deliveries of Boulton-Paul Spitfires would have begun in August 1938 ITTL and possibly as early as February 1938.
      • The first 450 Defiants were delivered between August 1939 and February 1941.
      • Bring that forward 18 months and the 450 Spitfires built in their place would have been delivered between February 1938 and August 1939.
    • Boulton Paul also built the 136 Blackburn Rocs IOTL. They were delivered between February 1938 and August 1940. Seafires could have been built in their place ITTL.

 

[Hammerbolt]

Supermarine starts to navalize the Spitfire in 1939, creating a proper reinforced landing gear. Seafire comes online in late 1940, and is a very bad suprise to the axis bombers.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

I'm sure the French forums will have that I think. Will tell you if I find anything

The Spitfire is built in larger quantities ITTL & that might reduce the production cost and IIRC from the research I did about the expansion schemes the Hurricane & Spitfire cost the same for planning purposes.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

The Spitfire in Romanian service​

Part of Post 133.

The table included a quote for 10 aircraft dated 29.03.38 for Romania, but it isn't mentioned in the text.

According to Page 235 of Green & Fricker's "The Air Forces of the World".

• Early 1940 Britain supplied 14 Blenheim I bombers and some Hawker Hurricanes & France a number of Potez 63.2 fighter-bombers to strengthen the Balkan Entente's resistance to German pressure.
  • According to another source that I have Romania was supplied with 12 Hurricanes which were taken from Hawker's first production contract (for 600 aircraft let in June 1936) and they were delivered from 28.08.39
• Romania joined the Axis on 23.11.40 and Luftwaffe supplied a squadron of He112B (previously turned down by the Luftwaffe), 40 Bf109E and 11 He111H-3.
  • Gunston in "An Illustrated Guide to German, Italain and Japanese Fighters of World War II" says that Romania received 24 He112B in 1939.
• By June 1941 a further 29 Bf109E, a number of Ju87D-2, He114 seaplanes and Fi156C liaison planes had been received.

ITTL Spitfires were built by Boulton-Paul, Gloster, Hawker & Westland instead of the Defiant, as many Gladiators as possible, the Henley, Hurricane, Lysander & Whirlwind and Walrus production being moved from Supermarine to Saunders Roe in 1936 instead of 1940. Therefore, Britain could have supplied 36 Spitfires instead of the 12 Hurricanes & 24 He112Bs as part of its measures to strengthen the Balkan Entente's resistance to German pressure. Britain would also have been able to supply 69 Spitfires in place of the 69 Bf109Es, but this was after Romania joined the Axis IOTL and all other things being equal the country still joined the Axis on 23.11.40. If all other things were not equal that would have increased the number of Spitfires to Romania from 36 to 105.

ITTL Britain would have supplied 14 Twin Battles instead of the Blenheims. Britain could have supplied more Twin Battles instead of the Potez 63.2s, but the French Government might want to be seen to be aiding Romania so my guess is that France still supplied the Potez 63.2s. Depending upon the diplomatic and military situations in late 1940 the British Government could have supplied Twin Battles instead of the He111Hs.

Update written on 23.12.23

To comment on something I have a bit of knowledge, i.e. Romania, the numbers in the book above are inaccurate. Romania received by 1940 inclusive 20 Potez-633B2 (plus iirc 10 in 1941 from Vichy stocks), 40 Blenheims (plus later IIRC 3 from Yugoslav booty), 12 Hurricane (of 50 ordered), 11 Bf-109E (of 50 ordered, rest delivered in 1941, and later on i think 1942 another 15 or 19 more as replacements), 30 He-112B, 32 He-111H-3. IIRC no He-114 were received until 1944 (the prewar orders was taken over by the Germans). No Ju-87Ds were received until 1943. Prewar there were also orders for Ju-87B and Do-215 but were never received.

Based on what @mack8 wrote.

• Although this is a Spitfire wank rather than a Fairey Battle wank.
  • HMG could have supplied 60 Twin Battles in place of the Blenheims & Potez 633s.
  • Which the Germans would have augmented with at least another 13 aircraft that it had captured in France & Yugoslavia.
  • HMG would also have seen that the Twin Battles ordered instead of the Do215s would have been delivered.
  • Romania also purchased the SM.79 from Italy and built some under licence. I think that Britain would have been able to sell Romania an equal number of Twin Battles and a manufacturing licence as part of its effort to help the Balkan nations resist Axis aggression.
  • Similarly, Britain would have provided 32 Twin Battles in place of the He111Hs.
• Re the fighters.
  • What he wrote about only 12 Hurricanes being delivered out of 50 ordered rings a bell with me.
  • ITTL Britain would have been able to deliver the 50 aircraft that were ordered.
  • What he wrote about 30 He112Bs rings a bell too. Britain would have been able to provide 30 Spitfires.
  • It would also have been able to supply 50 Spitfires in place of the Bf109Es.
  • That would increase the total total number of fighters supplied by the UK from 12 Hurricanes IOTL to 130 Spitfires ITTL.
  • The 15 or 19 Bf109Es that he said Germany supplied as replacements IOTL might have been 15 or 19 captured Spitfires ITTL.